Quote from: jeff37923 on January 27, 2023, 06:20:24 PMWotC has demonstrated their intentions and this is too quick & easy a win.

WotC believes the "trap" is any company staying in the TTRPG space instead of the glorious nirvana of VTT, so by dumping the SRD into CC, their competitors can keep selling books while WotC turns D&D into an evergreen SaaS product with the customers they actually want.

And they might be right from a financial standpoint.

Quote from: Dracones on January 27, 2023, 08:54:13 PM
So go to town now with beholders and mind flayers, because its in there.

The beholder is not an entry in the monsters section of the document. But the word is used in two places, in the Deck of Illusions magic item, and in the subsection explaning the types of monsters, listed as "quintessential aberrations" along with "mind flayers", which also don't have an entry as a monster.

WotC's intention wasn't to give us beholders, but the word was left behind in the text twice. I bet since this SRD 5.1 was released under the OGL 1.0a many years ago (if it is the same exact SRD), publishers noticed this but were advised not to push it by using what I believe is WotC trademark as the name of a monster, even if the name was in SRD.

Quote from: zer0th on January 28, 2023, 06:43:13 AM
WotC's intention wasn't to give us beholders, but the word was left behind in the text twice. I bet since this SRD 5.1 was released under the OGL 1.0a many years ago (if it is the same exact SRD), publishers noticed this but were advised not to push it by using what I believe is WotC trademark as the name of a monster, even if the name was in SRD.

The OGL specifically forbade use of Product Identity terms, including
beholder, gauth, carrion crawler, tanar'ri, baatezu, displacer
beast, githyanki, githzerai, mind flayer, illithid, umber hulk, yuan-ti.
Under the CC licence that no longer applies.

Just as a minor observation that the 5.1 SRD contains basically zero fluff-text (ex. nothing in the kobold entry suggests any appearance other than small humanoid). Rather, 5.1 is ONLY mechanics, so WotC is still clinging tight to its actually copyrighted material.

Short version, you can now safely use any of the provided 5e mechanical content stacks and names and spells, but you still need your own fluff expressions for things like races, classes and monster descriptions.

Similarly, the 5e SRD was always far less complete on the player side than the 3.5e SRD so if WotC were to stop offering the 5e Core Books, a content creator would still have a lot of work to do without duplicating the still copyrighted content (i.e. you could create a 5e school of abjuration for the wizard-class; but it would need its own elements and not just a cut-and-paste out of the PHB).

Basically, 5.1 under CC is good if you only care about access to various concept names. Content creators still have a lot of work they'll need to put into making the content useable. It's more like a box of barely copyrightable spare parts than anything.

They also STILL haven't made the OGL1.0a (where more of the fluff text lives) irrevocable so they can always revisit that later, once their movie has made its money and, they hope, justified their unpopular acquisition of eOne studios to their shareholders.

Because I suspect as much as anything that's what this is about. Hasbro execs spent a LOT on acquiring the studio and the shareholders aren't happy about it... and here's this OGL controversy sucking all the oxygen out of the room whenever anyone does a search for "D&D" instead of directing people towards their upcoming film that they need to see make at least mid-tier Marvel money to quiet the already jittery investors.

Once that hurtle is passed they can revisit all the OGL1.0a issues with less need to play nice. They still want all the fluff text back, because of course all the visual depictions of various critters are the most important parts of the IP when you're building a VTT using the unreal engine.

Without the 3.5e SRD under OGL1.0a providing;

"Kobolds are short, reptilian humanoids with cowardly and sadistic tendencies. A kobold's scaly skin ranges from dark rusty brown to a rusty black color. It has glowing red eyes. Its tail is nonprehensile. Kobolds wear ragged clothing, favoring red and orange. A kobold is 2 to 2½ feet tall and weighs 35 to 45 pounds. Kobolds speak Draconic with a voice that sounds like that of a yapping dog."

...then all the 5.1 gives you is a stat block for an undefined small humanoid who is sensitive to light and uses pack tactics. For purposes of a turn-based video game with probably automated combat outside of a health bar, action bar and click/touch targeting that is the LEAST important element... that only Hasbro has dragonling kobolds with the funny yappy voices for the VTT and plushies (that exclaim "we love you" like they did in that animated short) is what they care about.

Make no mistake, Hasbro still wants all the non-mechanical IP back... they view that as THE important thing to building their lifestyle brand. They just have a bigger fire to put out first.

The saddest aspect of this whole episode are the pathetic men so desperate to copy D&D just because it has some terms that you grew up liking as a child ("Mind Flayer", "Beholder"!) instead of creating literally anything new.

Quote from: Zelen on January 28, 2023, 09:07:34 AM
The saddest aspect of this whole episode are the pathetic men so desperate to copy D&D just because it has some terms that you grew up liking as a child ("Mind Flayer", "Beholder"!) instead of creating literally anything new.

I'll never regret stepping away from the OGL years ago. Having to create all my own lore by going back to the original myths and legends or by taking my own path really helped make the world feel like it's own special thing instead of having just what I consider to be better mechanics than 5e.

I'll take my Volcanic Dragons over Red Dragons any day. Same for my Ifrit, Jinn, Ku'ul, Shedim, Gallu, Dybbuk, Ghul, etc. demons. I'll take my more coherent origins for the wide array of monsters in my setting to the utterly random disconnected origins of most D&D settings.

I think realistically if all you're trying to do is ape D&D then you're never going to overthrow the 800 lb. Gorilla that is the real thing complete with all its ridiculous D&D-isms. You will always be in its shadow.

The only ones a third party can really hope to reach are the proverbial "Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas" seeking something more and so, "more of the same" is not going to draw them to you. Mind Flayers and Beholders aren't going to be a draw to such people.

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 28, 2023, 10:27:39 AM

Quote from: Zelen on January 28, 2023, 09:07:34 AM
The saddest aspect of this whole episode are the pathetic men so desperate to copy D&D just because it has some terms that you grew up liking as a child ("Mind Flayer", "Beholder"!) instead of creating literally anything new.

...I think realistically if all you're trying to do is ape D&D then you're never going to overthrow the 800 lb. Gorilla that is the real thing complete with all its ridiculous D&D-isms. You will always be in its shadow.

A number of folks are not trying to replace the 500lbs gorilla but to sell adventures and supplements to the people that play the 500lbs gorilla. For those people they need to copy things close enough they feel 'right' to the end user instead of feeling part of another game.

Quote from: Zelen on January 28, 2023, 09:07:34 AM
The saddest aspect of this whole episode are the pathetic men so desperate to copy D&D just because it has some terms that you grew up liking as a child ("Mind Flayer", "Beholder"!) instead of creating literally anything new.

I don't know.  Needing to insist that nostalgia is the only reason that someone likes something, I find is usually because of a desperate need to feel superior.  That's pretty darn pathetic.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on January 28, 2023, 11:19:10 AM

Quote from: Zelen on January 28, 2023, 09:07:34 AM
The saddest aspect of this whole episode are the pathetic men so desperate to copy D&D just because it has some terms that you grew up liking as a child ("Mind Flayer", "Beholder"!) instead of creating literally anything new.

I don't know.  Needing to insist that nostalgia is the only reason that someone likes something, I find is usually because of a desperate need to feel superior.  That's pretty darn pathetic.

Boring personal attacks aside, that's entirely the point. The things people liked (the ideas) were never under lock and key to begin with. So the crowing over this is purely about being able to Consoom D&D Product.

Nice to see they caved. Presumably it finally dawned on these dimwits that even if they got their way it would be a pyrrhic victory, so the best damage control was to concede ASAP as possible.

QuoteAnyway, to paraphrase "Blackhawk Down", isn't funny how when the first menace to the wallet whistled near the community's head, all the woke values went out of the window? 

Disagree.
Woke is also anti-capitalist, usually sympathetic to anarchism. So not allowing corporation to own things is... very woke. Especially things that was kinda owned by community.
With TV-shows and films they really had no leverage over corporations - so allowing them to annoy "evil bigots" was acceptable. It won't stop woke designers, and mobs of woke players by pescering non-woke designers in future and trying to cancel them.

QuoteNo, this is the best outcome. If they attempted to do an OGL 1.0b the creepy Woke weirdos would be all over them to make it more inclusive, make sure no nazis can make nazi stuff, blah, blah. That just opens a worm hole of problems.

Not sure. Woke crowd was quite clear they won't give their magical mob powers to WOTC.
Approval for claims they only do this to stop nazis was minimal.

QuoteNobody should ever use the OGL or SRD because been there done that. There is literally nothing new or innovative being created. And if you disagree, fine. Name something.

Quite obvious new stuff using it - are new settings and adventures that can be innovative without changing system. Obviously there is more room in hobby for more such supplements than for more totally new engines.

Quote from: Wrath of God on January 28, 2023, 11:52:14 AM
Woke is also anti-capitalist

I thought Woke was a replacement for anti-capitalism, OWS et al. Get the lefties focusing on race hate, gender hate et al, rather than hating the fat cats.

Quote from: S'mon on January 28, 2023, 12:02:57 PM

Quote from: Wrath of God on January 28, 2023, 11:52:14 AM
Woke is also anti-capitalist

I thought Woke was a replacement for anti-capitalism, OWS et al. Get the lefties focusing on race hate, gender hate et al, rather than hating the fat cats.

And you're correct, it's why while they spoput anti-capitalist shit all day they will lick the boots of the megabillion corporations and stand against the working class because "Muh heteropatriarchy, white supremacy, Istophobia..."

There is certainly attempt to virtue signal their way into woke's favour by big corporations and some amount of people being totally in line with woke-progressivism while also capitalist or even libertarian in terms of economy, but after spying upon several very woke FB groups for nerds and RPG players, I can safely say majority there while mocking non-woke fans chagrin about black elves in ROP also very much hate capitalism.

But usually they are not willing to put hatred toward conservative over it but this time WOTC showed weak underbelly, and attacked place in fandom where plenty smaller woke producers were making own shit, so situation changed and WOTC claims they just wanted to stop nazis helped them in no way.

QuoteAnd you're correct, it's why while they spoput anti-capitalist shit all day they will lick the boots of the megabillion corporations and stand against the working class because "Muh heteropatriarchy, white supremacy, Istophobia..."

Depends. Most time wokesters while anticapitalist by belief also are weak losers having nothing of revolutionary zeal and capability of communists and anarchists of old. They are too egotistic, too cacooned in their own precious identities, to do anything practical, and when you accuse them of being losers, they will throw a tantrum and say it's society fault not their.
And they usually say there is no ethical consumption but one needs to live so they are open to a lot of compromise to survive.

But this time WOTC showed weakness and due to all woke designers standing against Woke - basically power dynamics changed.
And voilla.

Of course they are still vehemently rooted in their twisted identity politics no doubt about it.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on January 28, 2023, 11:19:10 AM

Quote from: Zelen on January 28, 2023, 09:07:34 AM
The saddest aspect of this whole episode are the pathetic men so desperate to copy D&D just because it has some terms that you grew up liking as a child ("Mind Flayer", "Beholder"!) instead of creating literally anything new.

I don't know.  Needing to insist that nostalgia is the only reason that someone likes something, I find is usually because of a desperate need to feel superior.  That's pretty darn pathetic.

Don't try to understand an Alpha male, his liver-powered original brain is as far beyond yours as a man's to a monkey. You should just be flattered that he took the time out of constantly creating new and incredible things (while models bounce on his crotch) to crap on you for liking an existing thing.

You utter, utter, baby man child baby, liker of things, UGH!