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Pen & Paper Roleplaying Central => Pen and Paper Roleplaying Games (RPGs) Discussion => Topic started by: Osman Gazi on September 15, 2022, 11:44:55 AM

Title: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: Osman Gazi on September 15, 2022, 11:44:55 AM
Hi Folks,

Here's an article about this: https://www.polygon.com/tabletop-games/23349686/dnd-wizards-of-the-coast-vs-nutsr-tsr-justin-lanasa-racist-transphobic-star-frontiers

IP theft aside, the quotes allegedly taken from the game do seem pretty damn racist, so Wizards of the Coast might be the proverbial stopped clock in this case--little of what the Woke Mob calls racist is actually racist, but this seems pretty much actual racism:

(https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/rKsVwooIA-rwFhJ4kNjTsLXCMPU=/0x0:1649x1483/1320x0/filters:focal(0x0:1649x1483):format(webp):no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/24019664/injunction_1.JPG)

Now, I agree with them about BLM, and sickle cell "enemia" [sic], but the other crap?  Damn.

I stress that this is the allegation--maybe those quotes about "Negro" and "Nordic" don't actually appear in TSR's material, but I think it would be dumb for WOTC to just make this up wholesale.  Still, even if it's true, as abhorrent as it might be (and should earn TSR a bright red place on "The List"), there still is freedom of the press and they have every right to publish whatever they want.  (Just don't expect me to buy that crap, though.) And I frankly don't care if WOTC thinks it "harms their brand"...they've done a pretty good job of that themselves without any help from others.

Of course, the question of IP theft is one that the courts must decide, and I'm neutral on that one--I don't have much info on that.

All this makes me sad, really.  I would have loved to see a revived TSR to compete with WOTC...but why the explicit racism?? 
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: Brooding Paladin on September 15, 2022, 11:57:34 AM
Yeah, I agree with your take.  I was hoping for a happy TSR resurrection and a challenge to WOTC but this is all pretty indefensible.  Actual racism, as you said.  So, nah.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on September 15, 2022, 12:33:31 PM
Really? Oh my god, NuTSR really do sound like alt-right bigots. They've entered RaHoWa territory now. Part of me wonders if they're trolling out of spite, but this is completely unprofessional and indefensible. They're dragging TSR's brandname through the mud. Gygax must be rolling in his grave.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: jeff37923 on September 15, 2022, 12:33:59 PM
I think that we are only seeing part of the story.

There is a lot more to this.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: Brooding Paladin on September 15, 2022, 12:40:26 PM
Yeah, there was some talk about the possibility that this language was actually lifted from a previous iteration of the game and was not actually included in NuTSR's newest version.  However, they (NuTSR) haven't asserted that and the fact that it made it into the legal briefing makes me think that maybe they actually did include that wording.  Which, in any era and on any side of the fence, is really poor decision making and cause for offense.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: THE_Leopold on September 15, 2022, 12:49:00 PM
I don't have a copy of Star Frontiers in front of me to cross reference.  That seems highly skeptical that old TSR would go down the race route back in the day.  Seems rather odd choice. 

As far as the author of the Star Frontiers via NuTSR book who is an known racist:
https://www.tenkarstavern.com/2022/05/dave-johnsons-star-frontiers-new.html

Ole Dave Johnson's hot takes are hilarious on some and pure cringe on the other.  This is what happens when Boomers get access to FB/Twitter and think no one is watching. See Bob Bledsaw of Judges Guild.  protip: someone is always watching.

Tenkar Did a review of the Star Frontiers "leak":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fD9evesvAos

I'd love to see what the new copy holds in full glorious detail.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: Palleon on September 15, 2022, 01:08:50 PM
NuTSR can save themselves a lot of trouble by ceasing to try to use abandoned trademarks for profit and create their own IP and branding.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: tenbones on September 15, 2022, 01:28:57 PM
What? No Asian-subrace?

I am disappoint. Where is my reprezentayshon?!?
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: 3catcircus on September 15, 2022, 02:04:55 PM
I don't have a copy of Star Frontiers in front of me to cross reference.  That seems highly skeptical that old TSR would go down the race route back in the day.  Seems rather odd choice. 

As far as the author of the Star Frontiers via NuTSR book who is an known racist:
https://www.tenkarstavern.com/2022/05/dave-johnsons-star-frontiers-new.html

Ole Dave Johnson's hot takes are hilarious on some and pure cringe on the other.  This is what happens when Boomers get access to FB/Twitter and think no one is watching. See Bob Bledsaw of Judges Guild.  protip: someone is always watching.

Tenkar Did a review of the Star Frontiers "leak":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fD9evesvAos

I'd love to see what the new copy holds in full glorious detail.

He seems to be an illiterate mess. That having been said, the majority of his hot takes aren't all that "hateful" so much as they are "offensively blunt" in the opinion they present mixed with attempts to be "shocking." The fact of the matter is he looks like an an ignoramus and in the process, everyone who is falling over themselves to see who can be the first to virtue signal by condemning him ends up looking like just as much of an ass as he does.

Does TSR, LLC have the rights to Star Frontiers?  It's actually going to be a very interesting argument because WotC have not, in fact, actually protected their IP since they've allowed Star Frontiersman to post remastered publications (and hosted scans of the originals) of all of the star frontiers products for *years* before asking them to remove them.  They've published Star Frontiersman magazine between 2007 and 2014 and they've hosted the original product scans.  Seven years is a very long time to not enforce your IP rights and certainly would seem to open the door to losing a lawsuit because you now don't like a different entity using the IP while not being woke enough.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: Jam The MF on September 15, 2022, 02:10:50 PM
Why would anyone put something like that, into print?  That's an ugly mess.  That is just stupid.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: Effete on September 15, 2022, 04:40:11 PM
Does TSR, LLC have the rights to Star Frontiers?  It's actually going to be a very interesting argument because WotC have not, in fact, actually protected their IP since they've allowed Star Frontiersman to post remastered publications (and hosted scans of the originals) of all of the star frontiers products for *years* before asking them to remove them.  They've published Star Frontiersman magazine between 2007 and 2014 and they've hosted the original product scans.  Seven years is a very long time to not enforce your IP rights and certainly would seem to open the door to losing a lawsuit because you now don't like a different entity using the IP while not being woke enough.

That is very interesting. If Star Frontiersman has, in fact, operated for 7 years without challenge, they may have been able to make a legal claim on the actual IP. It would depend on the state statutes concerning such things, but in many places "7 years" is standard timeframe around legal issues. For example, in my town, 7 years is enough to nullify a building variance (like if you built a deck too close to your neighbor's property), or to claim ownership of a vacant property that isn't current on taxes. I'm not as familiar with copyright law as I am with property law, so there's things that I may not be privy to, but I think Star Frontiersman would have had a compelling case. Of course, assuming the C&D was issued in 2014, any challenge they WOULD have had has passed the statute of limitation.

Anyway, as for the issue in the OP, what a horrendous pile of shit. The vile language used in that book is only overshadowed by the appaling grammar. Clearly wasn't written by a Norse.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: FingerRod on September 15, 2022, 04:51:09 PM
I think that we are only seeing part of the story.

There is a lot more to this.

Are you saying there is even MORE that will come out or that there is mitigating context missing?
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: Palleon on September 15, 2022, 04:51:33 PM
I'm not as familiar with copyright law as I am with property law, so there's things that I may not be privy to, but I think Star Frontiersman would have had a compelling case. Of course, assuming the C&D was issued in 2014, any challenge they WOULD have had has passed the statute of limitation.

Copyright in the current world is effectively until Disney goes bust.  Whenever the Mouse comes up to become public domain, copyrights get extended.

It's Trademarks you need to defend against use and which is what this type of suit is the result of.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: rkhigdon on September 15, 2022, 05:26:20 PM
NuTSR has been a mess from the beginning.  Interestingly, a lot of people have been raging at other OSR sources (like Tenkar) for trying to point this out and no amount of NuTSR doxxing and disgusting behavior seems to be able to dissuade some folks of how god-awful they are.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: jeff37923 on September 15, 2022, 05:44:24 PM
I think that we are only seeing part of the story.

There is a lot more to this.

Are you saying there is even MORE that will come out or that there is mitigating context missing?

I think that the post and the article in polygon is a hot take on a complex mess used as clickbait.

We already know that NuTSR is run by a shit bag. We also already know that WotC wants to squash them but is on shaky ground since they haven't enforced their IP rights on Star Frontiers.

There will certainly be more to this story.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: Ratman_tf on September 15, 2022, 05:56:21 PM
I think that we are only seeing part of the story.

There is a lot more to this.

Are you saying there is even MORE that will come out or that there is mitigating context missing?

I think that the post and the article in polygon is a hot take on a complex mess used as clickbait.

Outrage is free advertising. I'm personally sick of it, but there's always going to be people who rise to the bait.

If WOTC wanted to enforce their IP, they should have enforced their IP.

Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: Effete on September 15, 2022, 06:16:27 PM
I'm not as familiar with copyright law as I am with property law, so there's things that I may not be privy to, but I think Star Frontiersman would have had a compelling case. Of course, assuming the C&D was issued in 2014, any challenge they WOULD have had has passed the statute of limitation.

Copyright in the current world is effectively until Disney goes bust.  Whenever the Mouse comes up to become public domain, copyrights get extended.

It's Trademarks you need to defend against use and which is what this type of suit is the result of.

Right. I just used "copyright law" as a catch-all, but you're correct in calling me out on it. There is a distinction.
Thanks!
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: FingerRod on September 15, 2022, 06:21:27 PM
I think that we are only seeing part of the story.

There is a lot more to this.

Are you saying there is even MORE that will come out or that there is mitigating context missing?

I think that the post and the article in polygon is a hot take on a complex mess used as clickbait.

We already know that NuTSR is run by a shit bag. We also already know that WotC wants to squash them but is on shaky ground since they haven't enforced their IP rights on Star Frontiers.

There will certainly be more to this story.

All fair points. Thanks.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: jeff37923 on September 15, 2022, 06:33:36 PM
I think that we are only seeing part of the story.

There is a lot more to this.

Are you saying there is even MORE that will come out or that there is mitigating context missing?

I think that the post and the article in polygon is a hot take on a complex mess used as clickbait.

We already know that NuTSR is run by a shit bag. We also already know that WotC wants to squash them but is on shaky ground since they haven't enforced their IP rights on Star Frontiers.

There will certainly be more to this story.

All fair points. Thanks.

No problem. I'm paying attention to this story because a lot of great work has been done by the online Dark Sun people and they are in a similar IP situation. The only real difference is that they do their stuff for free while NuTSR intended to sell theirs.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: VisionStorm on September 15, 2022, 07:50:09 PM
This ain't exactly new, but it's been making the rounds again now that the court proceedings have apparently started on this case. Any sympathy I might have had for NuTSR is long gone by this point. This has been an ever raging dumpster fire from the start.

All that NuTSR has done is make a lot of noise while producing NOTHING. And now they've finally given SJWs that "racism" they've been desperately looking for and finding nowhere till NuTSR came along. Now they get to point and claim that they were right all along (except for, you know...all those times that they weren't. Not that anyone would care).

All that NuTSR has accomplished is being an albatross around the neck of anyone associated with it. This almost makes me want to cheer WotC taking them down.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: Zelen on September 15, 2022, 07:53:58 PM
Not sure why you guys are pearl clutching about this.I wouldn't trust WotC or games "journalists" to tell me the time.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: Ratman_tf on September 15, 2022, 08:06:11 PM
Not sure why you guys are pearl clutching about this.I wouldn't trust WotC or games "journalists" to tell me the time.

Dunno whose "cluching pearls" here. Do you think the screenshots from the leaked playtest document are fake?
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: DocJones on September 15, 2022, 08:44:24 PM
Not sure why you guys are pearl clutching about this.I wouldn't trust WotC or games "journalists" to tell me the time.

Dunno whose "cluching pearls" here. Do you think the screenshots from the leaked playtest document are fake?
Is it relevant though?  It seems to be purely a trademark case.  WoTC does not sell Star Frontiers any more.  Not even thru Drive-Thru scans.
It's also pretty clear their ownership of that trademark was cancelled back in the 80's and TSR LLC owns it for both a role-playing games and card games.

The TSR trademark issue seems to be much stronger in WoTC;s favor.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: Palleon on September 15, 2022, 09:01:02 PM
Not sure why you guys are pearl clutching about this.I wouldn't trust WotC or games "journalists" to tell me the time.

Dunno whose "cluching pearls" here. Do you think the screenshots from the leaked playtest document are fake?
Is it relevant though?  It seems to be purely a trademark case.  WoTC does not sell Star Frontiers any more.  Not even thru Drive-Thru scans.
It's also pretty clear their ownership of that trademark was cancelled back in the 80's and TSR LLC owns it for both a role-playing games and card games.

The TSR trademark issue seems to be much stronger in WoTC;s favor.

I literally just bought Star Frontiers reprints for a few modules that I refuse to pay collector price for.  You may want to check your facts yourself.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/browse/pub/44/Wizards-of-the-Coast/subcategory/9730_29173/Star-Frontiers
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: DocJones on September 15, 2022, 11:41:40 PM
Is it relevant though?  It seems to be purely a trademark case.  WoTC does not sell Star Frontiers any more.  Not even thru Drive-Thru scans.
It's also pretty clear their ownership of that trademark was cancelled back in the 80's and TSR LLC owns it for both a role-playing games and card games.

The TSR trademark issue seems to be much stronger in WoTC;s favor.

I literally just bought Star Frontiers reprints for a few modules that I refuse to pay collector price for.  You may want to check your facts yourself.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/browse/pub/44/Wizards-of-the-Coast/subcategory/9730_29173/Star-Frontiers
I meant they don't sell the Star Frontiers game itself.
Their disclaimer on drivethru that all their old material might be racist doesn't help their case any.
How can they claim damage to their brand, if they believe the products they themselves published have damaged it. 8-)


Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: Palleon on September 16, 2022, 07:17:48 AM
I meant they don't sell the Star Frontiers game itself.
Their disclaimer on drivethru that all their old material might be racist doesn't help their case any.
How can they claim damage to their brand, if they believe the products they themselves published have damaged it. 8-)

What are you even talking about?  Both Alpha Dawn and Knight Hawks rules are in the list of products available.

The disclaimer is there so they don't need to pay someone to go in and give everything the Spell Jammer 5E treatment.  You do have a point that it seems to hurt the "you're going to cause harm to our reputation" side, which shouldn't even be an angle they need to take.  WotC bought everything the real TSR owned for IP.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: 3catcircus on September 16, 2022, 08:42:31 AM
Not sure why you guys are pearl clutching about this.I wouldn't trust WotC or games "journalists" to tell me the time.

Dunno whose "cluching pearls" here. Do you think the screenshots from the leaked playtest document are fake?
Is it relevant though?  It seems to be purely a trademark case.  WoTC does not sell Star Frontiers any more.  Not even thru Drive-Thru scans.
It's also pretty clear their ownership of that trademark was cancelled back in the 80's and TSR LLC owns it for both a role-playing games and card games.

The TSR trademark issue seems to be much stronger in WoTC;s favor.

I literally just bought Star Frontiers reprints for a few modules that I refuse to pay collector price for.  You may want to check your facts yourself.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/browse/pub/44/Wizards-of-the-Coast/subcategory/9730_29173/Star-Frontiers

You don't even need to do that. A quick Google search will lead you to websites that provide the remastered products - with higher production values than what dtrpg is selling.  There is even a project to do Star Frontiers using Moldvay BD&D rules...
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: Omega on September 16, 2022, 08:50:12 AM
I don't have a copy of Star Frontiers in front of me to cross reference.  That seems highly skeptical that old TSR would go down the race route back in the day.  Seems rather odd choice. 


I have the original TSR SF AND the original playtest materials. Theres no such thing in the book. Any claims that the original SF was in any way Wacist is a flat out lie. But then thats all these cultists do is lie. Even when they tell the truth they have to somehow lie.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on September 16, 2022, 09:22:12 AM
You don't even need to do that. A quick Google search will lead you to websites that provide the remastered products - with higher production values than what dtrpg is selling.  There is even a project to do Star Frontiers using Moldvay BD&D rules...
I'm curious why WotC doesn't try to revive d20 Modern so they can revive all their TSR IPs that don't fit strictly into the fantasy genre. They own Star Frontiers, Alternity, Gamma World, Amazing Engine, whatever was featured in Dragon and Dungeon magazines, and a bunch of others I can't remember now.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: Osman Gazi on September 16, 2022, 09:25:28 AM
I don't have a copy of Star Frontiers in front of me to cross reference.  That seems highly skeptical that old TSR would go down the race route back in the day.  Seems rather odd choice. 


I have the original TSR SF AND the original playtest materials. Theres no such thing in the book. Any claims that the original SF was in any way Wacist is a flat out lie. But then thats all these cultists do is lie. Even when they tell the truth they have to somehow lie.

By "original playtest materials" do you mean original when Star Frontiers first came out, or nuTSR's playtest materials?  And if it's nuTSR's playtest materials, is it the same materials covered in this video (referenced above)?  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fD9evesvAos (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fD9evesvAos)
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: THE_Leopold on September 16, 2022, 09:48:03 AM
You don't even need to do that. A quick Google search will lead you to websites that provide the remastered products - with higher production values than what dtrpg is selling.  There is even a project to do Star Frontiers using Moldvay BD&D rules...
I'm curious why WotC doesn't try to revive d20 Modern so they can revive all their TSR IPs that don't fit strictly into the fantasy genre. They own Star Frontiers, Alternity, Gamma World, Amazing Engine, whatever was featured in Dragon and Dungeon magazines, and a bunch of others I can't remember now.

How in the world is WOTC who wrestles and handwrings with any type of Social and Political commentary going to make a modern game without having it being called the next coming of Satan?  They can't talk about modern countries and politics, they couldn't deal with an XFiles type game because treating aliens like enemies would be "racist" and who knows if they want to ever touch anything around Europe and Africa without the twitter crowd decrying them for depicting them as is and not the coming of Wakanada.

3rd parties are doing it better and WOTC is better to license it out so they can disavow when shit goes wrong.

Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: Palleon on September 16, 2022, 10:17:48 AM
How in the world is WOTC who wrestles and handwrings with any type of Social and Political commentary going to make a modern game without having it being called the next coming of Satan?  They can't talk about modern countries and politics, they couldn't deal with an XFiles type game because treating aliens like enemies would be "racist" and who knows if they want to ever touch anything around Europe and Africa without the twitter crowd decrying them for depicting them as is and not the coming of Wakanada.

3rd parties are doing it better and WOTC is better to license it out so they can disavow when shit goes wrong.

This has truth to it but they are doing the Hasbro shareholders a disservice by sitting on the Star Frontiers and Gamma World IPs.  Mostly because idiots like nuTSR think they can just start using the IP because WotC isn't producing new content.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: wmarshal on September 16, 2022, 10:58:03 AM
Not sure why you guys are pearl clutching about this.I wouldn't trust WotC or games "journalists" to tell me the time.

Dunno whose "cluching pearls" here. Do you think the screenshots from the leaked playtest document are fake?
Is it relevant though?  It seems to be purely a trademark case.  WoTC does not sell Star Frontiers any more.  Not even thru Drive-Thru scans.
It's also pretty clear their ownership of that trademark was cancelled back in the 80's and TSR LLC owns it for both a role-playing games and card games.

The TSR trademark issue seems to be much stronger in WoTC;s favor.

I literally just bought Star Frontiers reprints for a few modules that I refuse to pay collector price for.  You may want to check your facts yourself.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/browse/pub/44/Wizards-of-the-Coast/subcategory/9730_29173/Star-Frontiers

You don't even need to do that. A quick Google search will lead you to websites that provide the remastered products - with higher production values than what dtrpg is selling.  There is even a project to do Star Frontiers using Moldvay BD&D rules...
Can you tell me more about the project to give Star Frontiers the Moldvay treatment? That’s right up my alley.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on September 16, 2022, 11:00:01 AM
How in the world is WOTC who wrestles and handwrings with any type of Social and Political commentary going to make a modern game without having it being called the next coming of Satan?  They can't talk about modern countries and politics, they couldn't deal with an XFiles type game because treating aliens like enemies would be "racist" and who knows if they want to ever touch anything around Europe and Africa without the twitter crowd decrying them for depicting them as is and not the coming of Wakanada.

3rd parties are doing it better and WOTC is better to license it out so they can disavow when shit goes wrong.

This has truth to it but they are doing the Hasbro shareholders a disservice by sitting on the Star Frontiers and Gamma World IPs.  Mostly because idiots like nuTSR think they can just start using the IP because WotC isn't producing new content.
Well, Sasquatch Game Studio LLC snatched up the Alternity trademark because WotC wasn't using it. Unless WotC is actively using the trademarks then those lapse and they can't prevent others from snatching them because of how trademark law works.

So somebody could easily snatch up the other trademarks WotC isn't using. Like Star Frontiers and Gamma World. Hint hint.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: Palleon on September 16, 2022, 11:06:44 AM
How in the world is WOTC who wrestles and handwrings with any type of Social and Political commentary going to make a modern game without having it being called the next coming of Satan?  They can't talk about modern countries and politics, they couldn't deal with an XFiles type game because treating aliens like enemies would be "racist" and who knows if they want to ever touch anything around Europe and Africa without the twitter crowd decrying them for depicting them as is and not the coming of Wakanada.

3rd parties are doing it better and WOTC is better to license it out so they can disavow when shit goes wrong.

This has truth to it but they are doing the Hasbro shareholders a disservice by sitting on the Star Frontiers and Gamma World IPs.  Mostly because idiots like nuTSR think they can just start using the IP because WotC isn't producing new content.
Well, Sasquatch Game Studio LLC snatched up the Alternity trademark because WotC wasn't using it. Unless WotC is actively using the trademarks then those lapse and they can't prevent others from snatching them because of how trademark law works.

So somebody could easily snatch up the other trademarks WotC isn't using. Like Star Frontiers and Gamma World. Hint hint.

Ah... but they are using them via PoD and PDF on DriveThru sales since before nuTSR was formed.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on September 16, 2022, 12:25:16 PM
How in the world is WOTC who wrestles and handwrings with any type of Social and Political commentary going to make a modern game without having it being called the next coming of Satan?  They can't talk about modern countries and politics, they couldn't deal with an XFiles type game because treating aliens like enemies would be "racist" and who knows if they want to ever touch anything around Europe and Africa without the twitter crowd decrying them for depicting them as is and not the coming of Wakanada.

3rd parties are doing it better and WOTC is better to license it out so they can disavow when shit goes wrong.

This has truth to it but they are doing the Hasbro shareholders a disservice by sitting on the Star Frontiers and Gamma World IPs.  Mostly because idiots like nuTSR think they can just start using the IP because WotC isn't producing new content.
Well, Sasquatch Game Studio LLC snatched up the Alternity trademark because WotC wasn't using it. Unless WotC is actively using the trademarks then those lapse and they can't prevent others from snatching them because of how trademark law works.

So somebody could easily snatch up the other trademarks WotC isn't using. Like Star Frontiers and Gamma World. Hint hint.

Ah... but they are using them via PoD and PDF on DriveThru sales since before nuTSR was formed.
WotC were selling Alternity ebooks and that didn't stop Sasquatch from taking the trademark. Also, letting people buy low quality electronic copies of decades old books probably doesn't count toward preventing trademark lapse. Otherwise ebook stores could be abused to maintain trademark for centuries without ever releasing a new book. You have to continuously use the trademark to keep it alive. Continuously re-releasing one product doesn't count, otherwise Hasbro could maintain their trademarks indefinitely by re-releasing a single copy of the same toy every few years.

So WotC has to continuously produce new books to maintain their trademarks. Otherwise Sasquatch couldn't have snatched the trademark. WotC lost the opportunity to maintain their trademark and they can't get it back unless nuTSR loses control of it. Hence this lawsuit.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: DocJones on September 16, 2022, 01:27:37 PM
What are you even talking about?  Both Alpha Dawn and Knight Hawks rules are in the list of products available.
I stand corrected.   My ability to search for items on DriveThru is oathetic.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on September 16, 2022, 01:35:56 PM
What are you even talking about?  Both Alpha Dawn and Knight Hawks rules are in the list of products available.
I stand corrected.   My ability to search for items on DriveThru is oathetic.
It's normal. People incorrectly say products are/aren't available on DriveThru all the time and it's annoying. That's partly why I wanted to make original rpgs in the first place: all the ones I liked aren't available digitally anymore and jfc the high seas are more trouble than they're worth. Fuck the corpos!
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: Ruprecht on September 16, 2022, 01:56:26 PM
I'm curious why WotC doesn't try to revive d20 Modern so they can revive all their TSR IPs that don't fit strictly into the fantasy genre.
Now that you  mention it, I'm surprised they didn't convert all these games to d20 Modern back in the 3.5 era.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: 3catcircus on September 16, 2022, 02:11:56 PM
Not sure why you guys are pearl clutching about this.I wouldn't trust WotC or games "journalists" to tell me the time.

Dunno whose "cluching pearls" here. Do you think the screenshots from the leaked playtest document are fake?
Is it relevant though?  It seems to be purely a trademark case.  WoTC does not sell Star Frontiers any more.  Not even thru Drive-Thru scans.
It's also pretty clear their ownership of that trademark was cancelled back in the 80's and TSR LLC owns it for both a role-playing games and card games.

The TSR trademark issue seems to be much stronger in WoTC;s favor.

I literally just bought Star Frontiers reprints for a few modules that I refuse to pay collector price for.  You may want to check your facts yourself.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/browse/pub/44/Wizards-of-the-Coast/subcategory/9730_29173/Star-Frontiers

You don't even need to do that. A quick Google search will lead you to websites that provide the remastered products - with higher production values than what dtrpg is selling.  There is even a project to do Star Frontiers using Moldvay BD&D rules...
Can you tell me more about the project to give Star Frontiers the Moldvay treatment? That’s right up my alley.

Don't know much about it other than seeing it as a category here:

https://starfrontiers.us/Projects/Lite?project=10571

Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: 3catcircus on September 16, 2022, 02:15:39 PM
You don't even need to do that. A quick Google search will lead you to websites that provide the remastered products - with higher production values than what dtrpg is selling.  There is even a project to do Star Frontiers using Moldvay BD&D rules...
I'm curious why WotC doesn't try to revive d20 Modern so they can revive all their TSR IPs that don't fit strictly into the fantasy genre. They own Star Frontiers, Alternity, Gamma World, Amazing Engine, whatever was featured in Dragon and Dungeon magazines, and a bunch of others I can't remember now.

Let's all just recognize that d20 modern sucked. It was so completely bland and devoid of inspiration.

The only game I liked that used d20 besides 3.0 D&D was Spycraft.  T20 Traveller was just ok. 
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on September 16, 2022, 02:56:51 PM
I'm curious why WotC doesn't try to revive d20 Modern so they can revive all their TSR IPs that don't fit strictly into the fantasy genre.
Now that you  mention it, I'm surprised they didn't convert all these games to d20 Modern back in the 3.5 era.
A number of them did get converted. Star Frontiers (as “Star Law”), Star*Drive and Bug Hunters appeared as mini-settings in d20 Future. Gamma World got a d20 edition with several books (although the backstory was retconned to involve nanomachines and genetic engineering instead of nuclear war). Dark•Matter got its own book under d20 Modern. There’s also plenty of d20 Modern/Future/Past settings that only appeared in the d20 books or Dragon/Dungeon/Polyhedron magazine, like Iron Lords of Jupiter (a planetary romance/sword & planet setting), one that was basically Josie & the Pussycats/Jem & the Holograms, GeneTech, Mecha Crusade, etc. Much like how Amazing Engine and Alternity before it tried to compete with GURPS and Traveller, d20 Modern tried to do the same.

I loved all of it but could never get a group together
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: Venka on September 16, 2022, 03:15:16 PM
I don't know much about this, but I do wonder if anyone would tolerate Hasbro nuking a smaller developer if said smaller developer wasn't doing this crap.  On imgur they had some thread about how WotC "had to" sue them.  Do they have a solid case, or is this just something that the courts will go along with because nuTSR decided to put a bunch of racism in an unpublished product?
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: Palleon on September 16, 2022, 03:20:06 PM
WotC had to sue nuTSR, if they want to continue to distribute reprint and digital copies of the old stuff, or intend to start developing it again.  Corporations almost never let their IP go without someone paying for the rights.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: Venka on September 16, 2022, 03:23:13 PM
Are you sure?  nuTSR has laid claim to the TSR brand and the Star Frontiers brand for years now, and Hasbro is suing them explicitly citing the "racist and transphobic" content.  Why was it ok for them to be called TSR for years but suddenly now there's a lawsuit?
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: FingerRod on September 16, 2022, 03:29:16 PM
I don't have a copy of Star Frontiers in front of me to cross reference.  That seems highly skeptical that old TSR would go down the race route back in the day.  Seems rather odd choice. 


I have the original TSR SF AND the original playtest materials. Theres no such thing in the book. Any claims that the original SF was in any way Wacist is a flat out lie. But then thats all these cultists do is lie. Even when they tell the truth they have to somehow lie.

By "original playtest materials" do you mean original when Star Frontiers first came out, or nuTSR's playtest materials?  And if it's nuTSR's playtest materials, is it the same materials covered in this video (referenced above)?  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fD9evesvAos (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fD9evesvAos)

Interested in the answer to this too. I’m assuming Omega was referring to the original works based on the fact legal documents attacking the recent work are referenced. But if those excerpts were not in the new play test materials then something odd is going on.

Regardless, whomever wrote what was referenced in your original post created objectively racist content. And while I get it that the danger hairs cry wolf over everything, we only keep the high ground if we can actually recognize a wolf when we see it. I believe you did a good job making that point.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: wmarshal on September 16, 2022, 03:53:35 PM
Are you sure?  nuTSR has laid claim to the TSR brand and the Star Frontiers brand for years now, and Hasbro is suing them explicitly citing the "racist and transphobic" content.  Why was it ok for them to be called TSR for years but suddenly now there's a lawsuit?
Because of the wackadoodle racism in the nuTSR version is why Hasbro has to sue it for no other reason. I’m not a lawyer, so I can’t speak to their lawsuit’s strengths or weaknesses, but just as a public relations matter they have to sue. If they don’t sue nuTSR then that would be seen by some/many that Hasbro is in essence fine with the nuTSR version, and no major corporation is going to be want to be seen as “fine” with an endeavor that reads like anything close to a FATAL or RaHoWa version of the original IP they owned. It Hasbro wins then they’re happy to smack down nuTSR. If they lose then at least they tried their best to stop nuTSR. If they do nothing then at best they look like they don’t care that this IP that’s associated with their company is basically a scifi StormFront game, and that’s at best. So sue they will.

What’s a downer for me is that I can see Hasbro going overboard on locking down any fan efforts with their IP (remember the T$R days). How can they not go overboard now? They took their eye off the ball so to speak, and now there are idiots trying to publish a Star Frontiers game with ‘Negro’ and ‘Mexican’ subraces.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: GeekyBugle on September 16, 2022, 04:02:58 PM
Are you sure?  nuTSR has laid claim to the TSR brand and the Star Frontiers brand for years now, and Hasbro is suing them explicitly citing the "racist and transphobic" content.  Why was it ok for them to be called TSR for years but suddenly now there's a lawsuit?
Because of the wackadoodle racism in the nuTSR version is why Hasbro has to sue it for no other reason. I’m not a lawyer, so I can’t speak to their lawsuit’s strengths or weaknesses, but just as a public relations matter they have to sue. If they don’t sue nuTSR then that would be seen by some/many that Hasbro is in essence fine with the nuTSR version, and no major corporation is going to be want to be seen as “fine” with an endeavor that reads like anything close to a FATAL or RaHoWa version of the original IP they owned. It Hasbro wins then they’re happy to smack down nuTSR. If they lose then at least they tried their best to stop nuTSR. If they do nothing then at best they look like they don’t care that this IP that’s associated with their company is basically a scifi StormFront game, and that’s at best. So sue they will.

What’s a downer for me is that I can see Hasbro going overboard on locking down any fan efforts with their IP (remember the T$R days). How can they not go overboard now? They took their eye off the ball so to speak, and now there are idiots trying to publish a Star Frontiers game with ‘Negro’ and ‘Mexican’ subraces.

Not a lawyer either but:

Given the first ammendment how could WotC win such lawsuit?

They don't own the TSR or Starfrontiers brands, isn't the owner to those rights able to publish whatever he wants?
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: Venka on September 16, 2022, 04:10:02 PM
Given the first ammendment how could WotC win such lawsuit?

They don't own the TSR or Starfrontiers brands, isn't the owner to those rights able to publish whatever he wants?

If there was a fair lawsuit evaluating things by the actual laws, sure, good point.
But we don't have that.  Once it's even semi-plausibly claimed that these guys are racist, somehow the court will go against them.  Our court system is used to illegally punish people who are racist or even just seen as such, because it is a weapon and not much else.

The only reason there's any chance, in my opinion, is that the materials in question were never published, and the owners might claim that the leaker or someone else is either The Only Racist or is engaged in Making Them Look Racist.  Given how these were leaked, I think that's unlikely.  If they rely on "it's our brand and we can make a Mexcan subrace with taco-related racial spells if we want because the first amendment america bald eagle", they'll lose their trademarks to the big corporation and be forced to pay reparations.  Which I guess probably is what's gonna happen.  I guess the point I'm confused about is, do they own these trademarks free and clear or not.  If they really obviously unarguably do, then there's a chance that something else goes down- they surrender the trademarks for a paltry sum and get to scamper away, for instance.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: deadDMwalking on September 16, 2022, 04:49:11 PM
If my company merges with a new company, and we stop using one or both old names, it's normal to let them expire.

If someone uses those names to try to IMPLY that they have an association or connection to my company (that no longer uses those names) I can object to that use. 

If it is very clear that they're not associated with me (like in another industry) and they're not using that name to try to to profit from existing brand recognition, I probably can't do much.  But if they are creating confusion for consumers it's more of an issue.

If nuTSR was selling computers, they'd probably be fine.  But since they're in TTRPG, maybe less so. 
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: Effete on September 16, 2022, 04:55:26 PM
Given the first ammendment how could WotC win such lawsuit?

They don't own the TSR or Starfrontiers brands, isn't the owner to those rights able to publish whatever he wants?

If there was a fair lawsuit evaluating things by the actual laws, sure, good point.
But we don't have that.  Once it's even semi-plausibly claimed that these guys are racist, somehow the court will go against them.  Our court system is used to illegally punish people who are racist or even just seen as such, because it is a weapon and not much else.

The only reason there's any chance, in my opinion, is that the materials in question were never published, and the owners might claim that the leaker or someone else is either The Only Racist or is engaged in Making Them Look Racist.  Given how these were leaked, I think that's unlikely.  If they rely on "it's our brand and we can make a Mexcan subrace with taco-related racial spells if we want because the first amendment america bald eagle", they'll lose their trademarks to the big corporation and be forced to pay reparations.  Which I guess probably is what's gonna happen.  I guess the point I'm confused about is, do they own these trademarks free and clear or not.  If they really obviously unarguably do, then there's a chance that something else goes down- they surrender the trademarks for a paltry sum and get to scamper away, for instance.

For the most part, you're right. Ultimately this comes down to who has the better claim to the StarFrontier trademark. Whoever can prove that is likely to win the case. The problem here is that it's very likely to be an embroiled suit. WotC let the IP slip for almost two decades, doing almost nothing with it except selling old versions. Meanwhile, if NuTSR was serious about their claim, why didn't they file a C&D on WotC for still selling those old versions?
Both sides have, in my estimate, a tenuous grasp to the rights. If it comes down to a proverbial coin-flip, the courts will probably side with WotC since they were the last to actually purchase the IP.

The lawsuit, however, seems to be over defamation and damage to brand (I'll have to read the linked briefing when I get a chance). That would solely come down to who owns the brand, which, as I mentioned above, is a whole separate issue. You bring up a good point about the material never being meant for public distribution. The materials were more akin to a private table making house rules. It's interesting to wonder whether WotC thinks they can sue customers for using their product "the wrong way." However, the law recognizes implied intent as a legal basis, and a gaming company holding "playtest" sessions implies they wish to publish. It's still a weak leg to stand on, since all kinds of changes can (and do) happen BEFORE publication. So, again, it's hard to claim damage from something that was never officially released to the public.

Also, since it was brought up a couple times, simply selling a product doesn't really equate to actively protecting a trademark. A company would need to produce new items to be able to make that claim. Selling a book from 40 years ago because you bought the legal right to distribute it won't cut it. Barnes&Nobel has the right to sell tons of books they don't own the IPs to. If I wrote a ripoff Star Wars book, or Harry Potter or whatever, B&N has no legal grounds to sue me.

Now, I'm not sure how close the WotC/nuTSR situation is to the B&N analogy, but from what I can see, the water is murky on both sides of the river.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: jhkim on September 16, 2022, 05:29:59 PM
Not a lawyer either but:

Given the first ammendment how could WotC win such lawsuit?

They don't own the TSR or Starfrontiers brands, isn't the owner to those rights able to publish whatever he wants?

From the suit, Wizards claims that they do own "TSR" and "Star Frontiers" as pre-existing common-law trademarks, and that LaNasa's federal registration of those as its trademarks is invalid. As with others - I am not a lawyer - but it seems common law trademarks exist simply from usage and don't need to be registered.

https://www.gerbenlaw.com/blog/an-overview-of-common-law-trademark-rights/

Common law trademarks may be marked with "TM" but don't have to be. My impression is that even if officially registered, a trademark can be invalid if it exists only to deceive customers about what they are buying. WotC claim that LaNasa's "TSR" and "Star Frontiers" trademarks are only to capitalize on their intellectual property - i.e. the products of the original TSR that they have no ownership of. As such, they are deceptive and the registration is invalid - and WotC's common-law trademarks should take precedence.

Someone else could use "Star Frontiers" as a title and/or trademark, but only if they weren't trying to be deceptive. i.e. A company could use it because it's a cool name for marketing to new players are interested by who never heard of the original. Again, though, I'm not a lawyer and that's just my reading of the argument.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: DocJones on September 16, 2022, 05:47:49 PM
Are you sure?  nuTSR has laid claim to the TSR brand and the Star Frontiers brand for years now, and Hasbro is suing them explicitly citing the "racist and transphobic" content.  Why was it ok for them to be called TSR for years but suddenly now there's a lawsuit?
There have been multiple people owning the trademarks.
Hexagonist Publishing LLC acquired the trademark for 'TSR Games'  (back in 2011). 
TSR GAMES RETURNS Hexagonist Acquires Rights to Name (https://icv2.com/articles/games/view/24452/tsr-games-returns)
Later they acquired the 'Star Frontiers' trademark, although I don't think they did anything with it.
When it was abandoned (2 years ago?) TSR LLC (nuTSR) acquired it.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: BronzeDragon on September 16, 2022, 06:08:38 PM
No problem. I'm paying attention to this story because a lot of great work has been done by the online Dark Sun people and they are in a similar IP situation. The only real difference is that they do their stuff for free while NuTSR intended to sell theirs.

Both Dark Sun and Birthright have had tremendous online support from fans, ever since the 3E days.

DS got published again in 4E, but nothing since then. Birthright has had zilch since the release of the video game The Gorgon's Alliance way back when.

Mystara is also in the same boat, with Mr. Welch's work converting the setting to 5E having been released for free because he could not get WotC to allow him to publish his book on the DM's Guild, despite no plans whatsoever to use Mystara ever again.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: Jaeger on September 16, 2022, 08:09:21 PM
...

Not a lawyer either but:

Given the first ammendment how could WotC win such lawsuit?

They don't own the TSR or Starfrontiers brands, isn't the owner to those rights able to publish whatever he wants?

All this defamation/racism malarky just shows that NuTSR are a bunch of natural born losers that couldn't make a viable game if the fate of the world depended on it.

NuTSR was a grift from the beginning.

There are no white hats in this boondoggle.

That being said, WotC did let their trademark registration lapse...


Not a lawyer either but:

Given the first ammendment how could WotC win such lawsuit?

They don't own the TSR or Starfrontiers brands, isn't the owner to those rights able to publish whatever he wants?

From the suit, Wizards claims that they do own "TSR" and "Star Frontiers" as pre-existing common-law trademarks, and that LaNasa's federal registration of those as its trademarks is invalid. As with others - I am not a lawyer - but it seems common law trademarks exist simply from usage and don't need to be registered.
...

I just happened to stay at a Holiday in Express last night...

Common law trademarks have geographical restrictions. They're basically meant to make it so that I cannot just open a new restaurant with the same name as a popular local one in the next town over hoping to take advantage of name recognition. They do not give the same level of rights as a federally registered trademark. A common law trademark will not protect that same local restaurant if I opened one with the same name the next state over.

WotC is trying to muddy the waters with all the defamation/racism idiocy in true lawfare style, IMHO it's interesting that they are relying on the  their Common law trademark from Washington state when NuTSR is in Wisconsin, and NuTSR has the federal registration for the marks. But their state level Common Law claim supersedes the Federally registered Trademarks, because still selling out of print PDF's & POD's...??

..
IMHO - It's all to bury them in legal fees to get them to come to the table and cede the trademarks back. But given the current year they might just get a judge to toss the law out and rule in their favor because racism as well.


...Ultimately this comes down to who has the better claim to the StarFrontier trademark. Whoever can prove that is likely to win the case. The problem here is that it's very likely to be an embroiled suit. WotC let the IP slip for almost two decades, doing almost nothing with it except selling old versions. Meanwhile, if NuTSR was serious about their claim, why didn't they file a C&D on WotC for still selling those old versions? ...

Because Filing legal stuff is very expensive. Unless you have a company that can front the bills no one is just going to throw a C&D at a large corporation with an army of lawyers.

They call it Lawfare for a reason.

WotC will likely come out on top in this issue due to having epically deeper pockets. The legalities of what is going on will likely go undecided. Which is a bit of a shame as the two claims pose a rather interesting legal question...
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: Effete on September 16, 2022, 10:26:48 PM
...Ultimately this comes down to who has the better claim to the StarFrontier trademark. Whoever can prove that is likely to win the case. The problem here is that it's very likely to be an embroiled suit. WotC let the IP slip for almost two decades, doing almost nothing with it except selling old versions. Meanwhile, if NuTSR was serious about their claim, why didn't they file a C&D on WotC for still selling those old versions? ...

Because Filing legal stuff is very expensive. Unless you have a company that can front the bills no one is just going to throw a C&D at a large corporation with an army of lawyers.

They call it Lawfare for a reason.

WotC will likely come out on top in this issue due to having epically deeper pockets. The legalities of what is going on will likely go undecided. Which is a bit of a shame as the two claims pose a rather interesting legal question...

I agree! The side with the deeper pockets usually wins. But my point was less about the financial realities and more about how strong of a claim nuTSR would have in the eyes of the law. If they really wanted to lay stake to the IP, they'd have made motions to suppress Wizards' use of it, regardless of the cost. Counterpoint: we do live in the "hey bro, fund me!" era, where they could have found a couple thousand idiots to throw money at them for such a cause.

I still have yet to read the briefing, but if this case is only about defamation and not trademark claims, you may be right it will go nowhere. As I mentioned, it would be hard for WotC to claim damage to a brand based off a leaked document that was never intended to be seen by the public. Interestingly enough, nuTSR is apparently too stupid to have their playtesters sign an NDA. Could have possibly been enough to have the evidence be non-admissable.

Edit - The average cost of having a lawyer draft a C&D letter is about 350 USD (https://www.contractscounsel.com/b/cease-and-desist-cost). Not exactly breaking the bank. Even if WotC chose to ignore it and even if nuTSR decided not to push litigation, it would still have been a good decision to reinforce their claim. But from everything I've seen from nuTSR, they're a bunch of retarded fuckwits.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: VisionStorm on September 17, 2022, 10:11:41 AM
They DID try to get this lolsuit crowdfunded. Problem is these people are all talk and no walk. They've been insufferable nitwits from the get-go, talking a big game about how they're gonna bring ye olde TSR back while producing absolutely nothing in the meantime, and banking entirely on the culture war to pull them through, while not truly being a part of it or having any real sway in the communities they've tried to insert themselves into. They even tried to lay some sort of claim to the OSR, IIRC (don't recall the details, though), while producing not a single OSR book.

All they've really done is piss a lot of people off, threaten a bunch of lawsuits left and right, make a lot of lofty claims, while not having a single book to their name, other than Giant Lands, which ended up going independent and disassociating from them before finally being published, cuz this was already too much of a dumpster fire by then for the guy working on it (Mystara's creator; forget his name) to smear their reputation by being near it
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on September 17, 2022, 11:33:29 AM
NuTSR doesn’t have the copyright, so the trademark is worthless. At least Sasquatch actually made an Alternity inspired game when they acquired the trademark.

In any case, WotC can get fucked. They’re not supporting their old IPs anymore and have no intention ever to, so in my opinion they should lose ownership. The fans deserve to be able to preserve, revive and maintain these old forgotten IPs

Unfortunately, copyright law is what it is. I personally think we should just make our own IPs instead, free of corpo shenanigans. I’m currently doing that with my own settings.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: jhkim on September 17, 2022, 05:04:07 PM
In any case, WotC can get fucked. They’re not supporting their old IPs anymore and have no intention ever to, so in my opinion they should lose ownership. The fans deserve to be able to preserve, revive and maintain these old forgotten IPs

I agree that fans should have that right. Copyright should be of limited term, like patents. Twenty or thirty years is plenty of time to see exclusive profit from a creation. After that, it should go into the public domain. The Constitution specifies for a "limited time", and a century or more isn't limited in any practical sense especially when it keeps getting extended. Someone should be able to commercially publish and profit from a reboot or extension of Star Frontiers, or any other 1970s / 1980s game.

I'm not sure about the point with WotC, though. I get that they shut down fan PDFs of the originals in 2014 when they began offering the reprints themselves. But Star Frontiersman is still available as pay-what-you-want on DrivethruRPG. So it doesn't seem like they are preventing fan-made extensions of Star Frontiers, just not copies of the original.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: VisionStorm on September 17, 2022, 05:46:18 PM
In any case, WotC can get fucked. They’re not supporting their old IPs anymore and have no intention ever to, so in my opinion they should lose ownership. The fans deserve to be able to preserve, revive and maintain these old forgotten IPs

I agree that fans should have that right. Copyright should be of limited term, like patents. Twenty or thirty years is plenty of time to see exclusive profit from a creation. After that, it should go into the public domain. The Constitution specifies for a "limited time", and a century or more isn't limited in any practical sense especially when it keeps getting extended. Someone should be able to commercially publish and profit from a reboot or extension of Star Frontiers, or any other 1970s / 1980s game.

I'm not sure about the point with WotC, though. I get that they shut down fan PDFs of the originals in 2014 when they began offering the reprints themselves. But Star Frontiersman is still available as pay-what-you-want on DrivethruRPG. So it doesn't seem like they are preventing fan-made extensions of Star Frontiers, just not copies of the original.

Yeah. Unlimited Copyright exists mainly to exists to please Mickey Mouse. Screw that noise. If you didn't make enough money from your creation in 20 years, you missed your boat.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: soundchaser on September 17, 2022, 05:50:40 PM
Hmm… copyright is 76 years beyond creator’s death. Patents (most) have 20 year protection, though exceptions exist. Trademark (if in use and the 10-year notice is filed) is forever.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on September 17, 2022, 06:07:56 PM
Yeah, trademark already serves the purpose of protecting profits. Even if Harry Potter became public domain right now, the trademarks would still be in effect and prevent others from advertising their products as Harry Potter.

This is why Disney doesn’t do anything more with Tarzan despite it being public domain. The trademark is still used by the Burroughs estate, which they have been rigorously maintaining by releasing new editions and licensing merchandise.

Copyrights are so long that they actually seem to be actively harmful instead. The Wizard of Oz stories have been public domain for a while, but nobody has really done anything with it. You could easily adapt it to a children’s cartoon but we haven’t seen any.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: Effete on September 17, 2022, 07:43:20 PM
NuTSR doesn’t have the copyright, so the trademark is worthless.

This statement doesn't make any sense. If nuTSR has the StarFrontier trademark, they could write a new book with that trademark, and it would have tacit affiliation with every other SF book out there. NuTSR would then own the copyright to that book they produced, even if they don't own the copyright to the other books.

Now, if I'm being charitable, what I THINK you mean is that nuTSR has the rights to the "StarFrontier" name, but not the IP in it's entirety. That may be possible, but that's still just a trademark issue. Nothing to do with copyright, which only protects specific products from unlawful reproduction.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: Omega on September 18, 2022, 04:36:27 AM
I don't have a copy of Star Frontiers in front of me to cross reference.  That seems highly skeptical that old TSR would go down the race route back in the day.  Seems rather odd choice. 


I have the original TSR SF AND the original playtest materials. Theres no such thing in the book. Any claims that the original SF was in any way Wacist is a flat out lie. But then thats all these cultists do is lie. Even when they tell the truth they have to somehow lie.

By "original playtest materials" do you mean original when Star Frontiers first came out, or nuTSR's playtest materials?  And if it's nuTSR's playtest materials, is it the same materials covered in this video (referenced above)?  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fD9evesvAos (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fD9evesvAos)

I said TSR not nuTSR. So yes the real Star Frontiers. Not this fake thing they are trying to pass off. A friend claims to have seen excerps from the early nuSF and claims it had alot of racist comments in it. But I have not seen such things myself so must take that with several grains of salt.

But seeing just the few posted excerps here and elsewhere it would surprise me none at all. The notSF writer comes across as a creep.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: Omega on September 18, 2022, 04:43:15 AM
I'm curious why WotC doesn't try to revive d20 Modern so they can revive all their TSR IPs that don't fit strictly into the fantasy genre.
Now that you  mention it, I'm surprised they didn't convert all these games to d20 Modern back in the 3.5 era.

They half-assed did.
White Wolf was outsourced to do the Gamma World books for d20m. Its a complete mess. Just call it Nano World and move on.
WOTC put out a series of d20m books and one was D20 Space or Sci-Fi. Not sure now. But that had a really half assed nod to Star Frontiers in it that was mostly a few name drops and not much else. Pretty sure was a IP nailing move. Use it or lose it.
White Wolf again was outsourced for the Masque of the Red Death d20m book. Not a bad book either. Though it ramps up the horror prevalence way too much in my opinion.

Those are the ones I recall.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: Omega on September 18, 2022, 04:52:43 AM
I don't have a copy of Star Frontiers in front of me to cross reference.  That seems highly skeptical that old TSR would go down the race route back in the day.  Seems rather odd choice. 


I have the original TSR SF AND the original playtest materials. Theres no such thing in the book. Any claims that the original SF was in any way Wacist is a flat out lie. But then thats all these cultists do is lie. Even when they tell the truth they have to somehow lie.

By "original playtest materials" do you mean original when Star Frontiers first came out, or nuTSR's playtest materials?  And if it's nuTSR's playtest materials, is it the same materials covered in this video (referenced above)?  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fD9evesvAos (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fD9evesvAos)

Interested in the answer to this too. I’m assuming Omega was referring to the original works based on the fact legal documents attacking the recent work are referenced. But if those excerpts were not in the new play test materials then something odd is going on.

Regardless, whomever wrote what was referenced in your original post created objectively racist content. And while I get it that the danger hairs cry wolf over everything, we only keep the high ground if we can actually recognize a wolf when we see it. I believe you did a good job making that point.

Real Star Frontiers, not this fakeStar Frontiers.

I agree that the red flags on this one are for once not the usual cry wolf tactics of the SJWs. Even the little I've seen paints a rather bleak opinion of this so-called designer.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: Omega on September 18, 2022, 04:57:22 AM
Not a lawyer either but:

Given the first ammendment how could WotC win such lawsuit?

They don't own the TSR or Starfrontiers brands, isn't the owner to those rights able to publish whatever he wants?

Apparently they think they do own the rights to Star Frontiers as they a year or two ago ordered the Starfrontiersman magazine to remove some things from their magazine. They also were putting the axe to one or two other SF fangroups that had prior agreements.

So either they are telling a lie that they have the rights and can enforce it. Or they do have the rights and can enforce it. It is WOTC so either could be true.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: Chris24601 on September 18, 2022, 08:11:38 AM
So either they are telling a lie that they have the rights and can enforce it. Or they do have the rights and can enforce it. It is WOTC so either could be true.
My bet would be on “we have lawyers and money and you don’t so who actually owns the rights is irrelevant.”

The question with these things is never “are you in the right?”; it’s “at a minimum of $250/hour how long can you afford to hold out against what they say is right?”
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on September 18, 2022, 03:23:30 PM
Does nobody here understand how copyright and trademark work?

WotC owns the copyright to the Star Frontiers IP. NuTSR does not. Even if NuTSR has the trademark, they cannot produce books using the original IP. They could only legally create an original IP that just uses the same name.

You see something similar with Sasquatch’s Alternity game. Altho it’s a loose retroclone of Alternity, it can’t legally use any of the original IP like the Star*Drive or Dark•Matter settings. Ergo, it’s a worthless ripoff that pisses off reviewers on DriveThruRPG.

Another example is Dragonstar. There’s a Dragonstar RPG that’s basically Spelljammer but with scifi tech instead of magitech (or proto-Starfinder, I guess). There’s a Dragonstar comic book about intelligent dinosaurs rescued before the asteroid by aliens then returned to Earth millions of years later. These two Dragonstars are unrelated.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: Effete on September 18, 2022, 03:58:16 PM
Does nobody here understand how copyright and trademark work?
Do you?

Quote
WotC owns the copyright to the Star Frontiers IP. NuTSR does not. Even if NuTSR has the trademark, they cannot produce books using the original IP. They could only legally create an original IP that just uses the same name.

I said as much in my previous post.

Quote
You see something similar with Sasquatch’s Alternity game. Altho it’s a loose retroclone of Alternity, it can’t legally use any of the original IP like the Star*Drive or Dark•Matter settings. Ergo, it’s a worthless ripoff that pisses off reviewers on DriveThruRPG.

But those are still TRADEMARK issues. Copyright protects the integrity of the whole body of work. If Sasquatch made a complete copy of the StarDrive or DarkMatter settings, but just changed all the names, they'd be free of trademark violations but would still run foul of copyright. However, courts have ruled that if enough changes are made so that the products are "similar" but not "exact," then no copyright infringement takes place. This is how FASA got away with completely ripping off R.Talsorian Cyberpunk.

This site (https://www.copyright.gov/what-is-copyright/) does a good job explaining it.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: jhkim on September 18, 2022, 07:05:27 PM
From the suit, Wizards claims that they do own "TSR" and "Star Frontiers" as pre-existing common-law trademarks, and that LaNasa's federal registration of those as its trademarks is invalid. As with others - I am not a lawyer - but it seems common law trademarks exist simply from usage and don't need to be registered.

I just happened to stay at a Holiday in Express last night...

Common law trademarks have geographical restrictions. They're basically meant to make it so that I cannot just open a new restaurant with the same name as a popular local one in the next town over hoping to take advantage of name recognition. They do not give the same level of rights as a federally registered trademark. A common law trademark will not protect that same local restaurant if I opened one with the same name the next state over.

WotC is trying to muddy the waters with all the defamation/racism idiocy in true lawfare style, IMHO it's interesting that they are relying on the  their Common law trademark from Washington state when NuTSR is in Wisconsin, and NuTSR has the federal registration for the marks. But their state level Common Law claim supersedes the Federally registered Trademarks, because still selling out of print PDF's & POD's...??
..
IMHO - It's all to bury them in legal fees to get them to come to the table and cede the trademarks back.

My impression is that the geographic restriction is a historical precedent from times when advertising was primarily local. The *intent* of trademark is precisely to prevent deceptive marketing, where people think they're buying from one producer and instead are buying from another. Historically, if "Sue's Diner" was in New York, then someone isn't allowed to open another "Sue's Diner" down the street because customers might drawn to the other one based on advertising or word of mouth from the original. However, if someone opened a "Sue's Diner" in Texas, no one would think they're the same.

You mention "Holiday Inn Express" - but that is a subsidiary of Holiday Inn that shares the same trademark. It's not a deceptive move by a third party to bank on the success of Holiday Inn.

Regarding geography, advertising has changed in the age of the Internet, and I'd be curious if precedent has been revised. It used to be that a tiny company like LaNasa's TSR would only reach a small local area. Now they still have extremely small reach of certain market segment, but it's widely geographically dispersed.

It seems to me that in this case, WotC has a point. The "Star Frontiers" trademark was registered purely to be deceptive - to try to piggyback on the original Star Frontiers RPG that LaNasa has no rights to. That deception is the only reason LaNasa's TSR is getting any attention at all.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: Ratman_tf on September 18, 2022, 07:25:38 PM
However, courts have ruled that if enough changes are made so that the products are "similar" but not "exact," then no copyright infringement takes place. This is how FASA got away with completely ripping off R.Talsorian Cyberpunk.

Wut?
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: Batjon on September 18, 2022, 08:24:29 PM
Frontier Space is the new fanmade version of Star Frontiers that is better than the original anyhow and readily/easily available for good prices.

Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on September 18, 2022, 09:11:15 PM
Frontier Space is the new fanmade version of Star Frontiers that is better than the original anyhow and readily/easily available for good prices.
I’ll have to check that out. Unfortunately the alien options seem too sparse. One of the best parts of TSR’s scifi games like Star Frontiers, Galactos Barrier, and Star*Drive was their diverse roster of aliens.

I’m disappointed. I haven’t found anything that compares to d20 Future tho (besides GURPS, I guess, but omg that’s still intimidating af). Altho the chapter on campaign settings is too short to be very useful, it’s the only game I can find that covers the entire genre like a scifi counterpart of D&D. It has rules for mechs, psi, mutations (useful not just for post-apocalyptic settings but also biopunk), robots, moreaus, aliens, cyborgs, and more that can be mixed and matched. Every other game I could find is always married to a specific setting, and none of the settings I can find really suit my interest.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: Ruprecht on September 18, 2022, 09:19:31 PM
I’ll have to check that out. Unfortunately the alien options seem too sparse. One of the best parts of TSR’s scifi games like Star Frontiers, Galactos Barrier, and Star*Drive was their diverse roster of aliens.
Someone should crowdsource an Alien Bestiary Petty Gods style.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: Mistwell on September 18, 2022, 09:37:11 PM
For fuck's sake. It seems like virtually nobody on this site has actually followed this issue much.

How do you guys not realize it was NuTSR that sued WOTC first?
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: Batjon on September 18, 2022, 10:19:24 PM
There are pre-built alien species in the core books and rules to very easily create your own.  There are also several supplements and Frontier Explorer magazine, the latter of which has tens of issues out currently.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: Batjon on September 18, 2022, 10:20:04 PM
How do you guys not realize it was NuTSR that sued WOTC first?

For the record, I remember it.  I had commented in threads in regard to it in places.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: Effete on September 18, 2022, 10:44:13 PM
However, courts have ruled that if enough changes are made so that the products are "similar" but not "exact," then no copyright infringement takes place. This is how FASA got away with completely ripping off R.Talsorian Cyberpunk.

Wut?

You're telling me you never noticed the similarities between the premise of the two games? Both involve fighting a culture war against huge megacorps and jacking your consciousness into a massive digital network. Even the term "runners" is shared. Sure, you can say they both ripped off William Gibson, but Gibson never wrote a TTRPG, so the market was fair game.

Cyberpunk was released first in 1988 and was a cited by Paul Hume as an influence for Shadowrun, which was released a year later in 1989. FASA added magic and fantasy races, and tied the setting directly to their Earthdawn setting, which was enough to prevent any sort of IP infringement on Cyberpunk.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: Effete on September 18, 2022, 10:47:40 PM
For fuck's sake. It seems like virtually nobody on this site has actually followed this issue much.

How do you guys not realize it was NuTSR that sued WOTC first?

Guilty as charged.

I've been too busy to get into the whole issue, so I was just taking other people's word on some things. Not trying to scapegoat. It's my fault too.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: Mistwell on September 18, 2022, 11:27:25 PM
For fuck's sake. It seems like virtually nobody on this site has actually followed this issue much.

How do you guys not realize it was NuTSR that sued WOTC first?

Guilty as charged.

I've been too busy to get into the whole issue, so I was just taking other people's word on some things. Not trying to scapegoat. It's my fault too.

That's...totally fair.

Anyway, NuTSR even crowd funded their lawsuit against WOTC. A part of their lawsuit was to challenge the "Warning" portion of WOTC's electronic sales of older books.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: Effete on September 19, 2022, 12:45:13 AM
Guilty as charged.

I've been too busy to get into the whole issue, so I was just taking other people's word on some things. Not trying to scapegoat. It's my fault too.

That's...totally fair.

Anyway, NuTSR even crowd funded their lawsuit against WOTC. A part of their lawsuit was to challenge the "Warning" portion of WOTC's electronic sales of older books.

I'm gonna try to hunt down the legal briefing on nuTSR's lawsuit tomorrow, but I just got through reading most of Wizard's counterclaim. Primarily WotC seeks an injunction to prevent the racist and exclusionary content that LaNasa made from going into publication. So this isn't actually a defamation suit, just a preliminary injunction to prevent any possible future damages. Personally, I agree one-hundred percent with Wizards on this. As long as they continue to hold the distribution rights to old Star Frontiers material, they COULD potentially see damages from LaNasa's stupid remarks. (Wizards is more than welcome to damage their brand without anyone elses help.)

As for the battle over the trademarks, I'll need to see nuTSR's evidence in full, but it looks like WotC are banking on "commonlaw" use since they continue to sell products with those marks. As I mentioned in an earlier post, that does not equate to "actively" using the marks, so LaNasa may actually have a strong claim to the names. Without any of the associated trademarks to SF, though, all he has is a legacy name. If the courts rule his claim is legitimate, he'd be in a good position to seek acquirement of the IP from Wizard's, citing exactly the reason Wizards is: conflict of interest. As I mentioned earlier, this is going to a messy, embroiled suit, and will ultimately come down to who has the deeper pockets.

But honestly, even if LaNasa wins, is anyone seriously going to buy anything from him?
I know I won't. It really seems like he has so little to gain from all this.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: Effete on September 19, 2022, 01:06:38 AM
So, the presiding judge on this case is one S.Kate Vaughn. This is one of her courtroom rules:
Quote
The parties and counsel are encouraged to advise the Court of their pronouns and may do so by including their pronouns in signature lines or advising the in-court deputy clerk of pronouns and honorifics before a hearing begins, either via email or in person.

LaNasa's FUCKED !! ;D ;D
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: Omega on September 19, 2022, 09:06:02 AM
I’ll have to check that out. Unfortunately the alien options seem too sparse. One of the best parts of TSR’s scifi games like Star Frontiers, Galactos Barrier, and Star*Drive was their diverse roster of aliens.

Um... Star Frontiers had all of 4 aliens to select from. Human, Vrusk, Dralasite and Yazirian. Which I happen to like for its spartan use where other games drop in sometimes dozens of aliens. And no Zebulon's Guide doesnt count. Its practically a new game and setting.

As for WOTC. Who knows at this point. But as noted. They have contacted various fan groups and made it clear they own the IP and that they intend to blockade certain uses. Including ones that had prior agreements.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on September 19, 2022, 10:55:30 AM
I’ll have to check that out. Unfortunately the alien options seem too sparse. One of the best parts of TSR’s scifi games like Star Frontiers, Galactos Barrier, and Star*Drive was their diverse roster of aliens.
Someone should crowdsource an Alien Bestiary Petty Gods style.
Here's a starting point: http://jbr.me.uk/exo/

I’ll have to check that out. Unfortunately the alien options seem too sparse. One of the best parts of TSR’s scifi games like Star Frontiers, Galactos Barrier, and Star*Drive was their diverse roster of aliens.

Um... Star Frontiers had all of 4 aliens to select from. Human, Vrusk, Dralasite and Yazirian. Which I happen to like for its spartan use where other games drop in sometimes dozens of aliens. And no Zebulon's Guide doesnt count. Its practically a new game and setting.
Well excuse me for being spoiled.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: LouProsperi on September 19, 2022, 12:38:15 PM
However, courts have ruled that if enough changes are made so that the products are "similar" but not "exact," then no copyright infringement takes place. This is how FASA got away with completely ripping off R.Talsorian Cyberpunk.

Wut?

You're telling me you never noticed the similarities between the premise of the two games? Both involve fighting a culture war against huge megacorps and jacking your consciousness into a massive digital network. Even the term "runners" is shared. Sure, you can say they both ripped off William Gibson, but Gibson never wrote a TTRPG, so the market was fair game.

Cyberpunk was released first in 1988 and was a cited by Paul Hume as an influence for Shadowrun, which was released a year later in 1989. FASA added magic and fantasy races, and tied the setting directly to their Earthdawn setting, which was enough to prevent any sort of IP infringement on Cyberpunk.

There was no need for FASA to try to "prevent any sort of IP infringement on Cyberpunk" since there was no IP infringement in the first place. The fact that Shadowrun shares a genre with R. Talsorian's Cyberpunk doesn't mean it infringed in R. Talsorian's IP. Genre doesn't equal intellectual property.  That's like suggesting that any RPG in which PCs explore dungeons is an infringement on D&D. That's not the way things work.


Also, Earthdawn wasn't released until 1993, 4 years after Shadowrun, and the connections between the games had *nothing* to do with attempting to prevent IP infringement.


Lou Prosperi
Earthdawn Product Line Developer, FASA, 1992-1998
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: Effete on September 19, 2022, 01:16:57 PM
There was no need for FASA to try to "prevent any sort of IP infringement on Cyberpunk" since there was no IP infringement in the first place. The fact that Shadowrun shares a genre with R. Talsorian's Cyberpunk doesn't mean it infringed in R. Talsorian's IP. Genre doesn't equal intellectual property.  That's like suggesting that any RPG in which PCs explore dungeons is an infringement on D&D. That's not the way things work.

I wasn't trying to suggest that the developers of Shadowrun were doing anything nefarious, only that despite any similarities between the games, they are legally different IPs. As far as I know, Mike Pondsmith never even considered litigation, so I'm not making any implication there was even a dispute. My only point was to demonstrate how fragile "IP protection" can be in a court of law, specifically as it pertains to this WoctC/TRS debacle.

While saying FASA "ripped off" R.Tal was a bit hyperbolic, the overt similarities between the games does go slightly beyond merely being in the same genre. Again, not saying that's a bad thing. Many times a "rip off" game is more fun than the one that inspired it.

Quote
Also, Earthdawn wasn't released until 1993, 4 years after Shadowrun, and the connections between the games had *nothing* to do with attempting to prevent IP infringement.


Lou Prosperi
Earthdawn Product Line Developer, FASA, 1992-1998

Ah, so tying the two settings together was something that came later then? My bad! Thanks for clearing that up.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on September 19, 2022, 01:35:36 PM
While saying FASA "ripped off" R.Tal was a bit hyperbolic, the overt similarities between the games does go slightly beyond merely being in the same genre. Again, not saying that's a bad thing. Many times a "rip off" game is more fun than the one that inspired it.
Probably because a new game is free to reexamine assumptions and go in new directions. Existing IPs are typically stuck with ancient baggage that severely limits their versatility and creativity. Well, you could try to do something new but doing so always provokes edition wars. Which I've never really understood for RPG properties. For passive media going in new directions really is a zero sum game unless you're really into fanfiction (and that's always hit or miss at best), but for RPGs the books are only ever guidelines. Annoyed that the devs have become burned out and want to do something new? Annoyed that the devs have become stuck in a perpetual circular nostalgia rut that constantly repackages the same old shit over and over without meaningful difference? Well, they usually don't take away the old books and you can still make stuff up for that, or just make up your own game like the guys doing CryptWorld, Mutant Future, nuAlternity, FrontierSpace, etc.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: LouProsperi on September 19, 2022, 04:17:50 PM
Also, Earthdawn wasn't released until 1993, 4 years after Shadowrun, and the connections between the games had *nothing* to do with attempting to prevent IP infringement.


Lou Prosperi
Earthdawn Product Line Developer, FASA, 1992-1998

Ah, so tying the two settings together was something that came later then? My bad! Thanks for clearing that up.

Yes, it came later. Right from the beginning of Shadowrun it was clear that it was not the first time magic had been present in the world. There were numerous references to magic "returning", so the idea that there had been a past age of magic was part of the setting.

However, FASA decided to publish Earthdawn later, and it wasn't always going to be connected to Shadowrun. There was some debate (which was before my time) about whether it should be the past magical world hinted at in Shadowrun, or something separate.

By the time I was hired (in December 1992), the debate was over, and and FASA had decided that Earthdawn would indeed be the previous age of magic alluded to in Shadowrun.


Thanks!

Lou Prosperi
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: Effete on September 20, 2022, 12:04:57 AM
While saying FASA "ripped off" R.Tal was a bit hyperbolic, the overt similarities between the games does go slightly beyond merely being in the same genre. Again, not saying that's a bad thing. Many times a "rip off" game is more fun than the one that inspired it.
Probably because a new game is free to reexamine assumptions and go in new directions. Existing IPs are typically stuck with ancient baggage that severely limits their versatility and creativity. Well, you could try to do something new but doing so always provokes edition wars. Which I've never really understood for RPG properties. For passive media going in new directions really is a zero sum game unless you're really into fanfiction (and that's always hit or miss at best), but for RPGs the books are only ever guidelines.

That's a nice ideal, but some games are so dense and crunchy that it's hard to deviate from the written word and make the mechanics fit. It's why I have no issue at all with taking someone else's good idea and making making it your own. Oftentimes a creator gets so absorbed in their own ideas, they don't notice if it works or not. Playtests can solve these issues, but only if you have people willing to point them out.

But, yeah, I have no problems with developers taking a familiar idea and turning it into something new. Whether that's being inspired by another IP or revamping the mechanics of system.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on September 20, 2022, 07:41:23 AM
In any case, I think WotC has no right to the Star Frontiers trademark and it would set a dangerous precedent if the judge rules in their favor. NuTSR is right: WotC abandoned Star Frontiers and selling shitty scans of books from the 1980s shouldn’t count towards maintaining the trademark. The trademark would have already lapsed decades ago.

Why didn’t WotC do anything when Sasquatch snatched the Alternity trademark? Hm? It’s actually caused brand confusion: I saw a moderator on Enworld claim falsely that WotC didn’t have the rights to Alternity, not understanding the difference between copyright and trademark law. Reviewers complained that Sasquatch wasn’t selling the old books, not understanding how copyright works.

That NuTSR is racist is irrelevant to the facts of the case. WotC lost fair and square, they have no intention of fairly maintaining the trademark, now they’re just being sore losers about it.

If the judge rules in WotC’s favor out of personal preference rather than the facts (WotC obviously lost the trademark decades ago), then that will have unintended and potentially dangerous consequences for trademark law. Back when trademark law was drafted, we didn’t have ebook retailers that made copies of a book infinitely available as long the store existed. If the existence of libraries doesn’t count toward trademark, then ebook retailers and streaming services shouldn’t either because they’re basically privatized libraries.

I mean, I don’t think any other company would defend a trademark they haven’t been actively using for decades, much less win another case like this in court. Do you?
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: Ghostmaker on September 20, 2022, 09:16:34 AM
Can they both lose?

Also, the Earthdawn/Shadowrun connection reminds me of White Wolf's aborted attempt to tie Exalted into World of Darkness, except, y'know, FASA did it better.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: Osman Gazi on September 20, 2022, 09:56:29 AM
In any case, I think WotC has no right to the Star Frontiers trademark and it would set a dangerous precedent if the judge rules in their favor. NuTSR is right: WotC abandoned Star Frontiers and selling shitty scans of books from the 1980s shouldn’t count towards maintaining the trademark. The trademark would have already lapsed decades ago.

Why didn’t WotC do anything when Sasquatch snatched the Alternity trademark? Hm? It’s actually caused brand confusion: I saw a moderator on Enworld claim falsely that WotC didn’t have the rights to Alternity, not understanding the difference between copyright and trademark law. Reviewers complained that Sasquatch wasn’t selling the old books, not understanding how copyright works.

That NuTSR is racist is irrelevant to the facts of the case. WotC lost fair and square, they have no intention of fairly maintaining the trademark, now they’re just being sore losers about it.

If the judge rules in WotC’s favor out of personal preference rather than the facts (WotC obviously lost the trademark decades ago), then that will have unintended and potentially dangerous consequences for trademark law. Back when trademark law was drafted, we didn’t have ebook retailers that made copies of a book infinitely available as long the store existed. If the existence of libraries doesn’t count toward trademark, then ebook retailers and streaming services shouldn’t either because they’re basically privatized libraries.

I mean, I don’t think any other company would defend a trademark they haven’t been actively using for decades, much less win another case like this in court. Do you?

After reviewing the facts that you related here, it seems that WOTC's main beef is they want to use any tool at their disposal to make sure that any racist (either real racist like the alleged quotes given above, or "racist" in the woke sense) content isn't associated with them in any way.  And yeah, I don't want to see trademark laws get the Disney treatment that made the Mouse so privilaged.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: Armchair Gamer on September 20, 2022, 11:07:41 AM
Can they both lose?

 We live in hope.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: wmarshal on September 20, 2022, 12:49:26 PM
In any case, I think WotC has no right to the Star Frontiers trademark and it would set a dangerous precedent if the judge rules in their favor. NuTSR is right: WotC abandoned Star Frontiers and selling shitty scans of books from the 1980s shouldn’t count towards maintaining the trademark. The trademark would have already lapsed decades ago.

Why didn’t WotC do anything when Sasquatch snatched the Alternity trademark? Hm? It’s actually caused brand confusion: I saw a moderator on Enworld claim falsely that WotC didn’t have the rights to Alternity, not understanding the difference between copyright and trademark law. Reviewers complained that Sasquatch wasn’t selling the old books, not understanding how copyright works.

That NuTSR is racist is irrelevant to the facts of the case. WotC lost fair and square, they have no intention of fairly maintaining the trademark, now they’re just being sore losers about it.

If the judge rules in WotC’s favor out of personal preference rather than the facts (WotC obviously lost the trademark decades ago), then that will have unintended and potentially dangerous consequences for trademark law. Back when trademark law was drafted, we didn’t have ebook retailers that made copies of a book infinitely available as long the store existed. If the existence of libraries doesn’t count toward trademark, then ebook retailers and streaming services shouldn’t either because they’re basically privatized libraries.

I mean, I don’t think any other company would defend a trademark they haven’t been actively using for decades, much less win another case like this in court. Do you?

After reviewing the facts that you related here, it seems that WOTC's main beef is they want to use any tool at their disposal to make sure that any racist (either real racist like the alleged quotes given above, or "racist" in the woke sense) content isn't associated with them in any way.  And yeah, I don't want to see trademark laws get the Disney treatment that made the Mouse so privilaged.
From WOTC’s standpoint I think the most important thing is that they have to engage in the legal fight against nuTSR whether they win or not. They can’t be seen as just taking in stride nuTSR creating a StormFront version of Star Frontiers.

The other thing Hasbro will learn is that they will have to dedicate some effort to make sure no other trademark or other IP related to WOTC is ever allowed to be vulnerable to “capture” by an outside party ever again. I think what nuTSR is doing with Star Frontiers probably never crossed Hasbro’s collective mind, but now that it has they will be much more guarded with all their IPs much more than before.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: Aglondir on September 20, 2022, 01:10:21 PM
WOTC was enforcing their copyright at least as far back as 2018:

Quote from: Tom Stephens, Star Frontiersman website, 2/26/2018

I was contacted last week by WotC to let me know that they were revoking my permissions to post materials related to the Star Frontiers game and the original Dragon magazine articles.

I'm not a copyright expert, but Nu-TSR formed in 2020, so how can they win this?
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: Omega on September 20, 2022, 02:12:08 PM
However, courts have ruled that if enough changes are made so that the products are "similar" but not "exact," then no copyright infringement takes place. This is how FASA got away with completely ripping off R.Talsorian Cyberpunk.

Wut?

You're telling me you never noticed the similarities between the premise of the two games? Both involve fighting a culture war against huge megacorps and jacking your consciousness into a massive digital network. Even the term "runners" is shared. Sure, you can say they both ripped off William Gibson, but Gibson never wrote a TTRPG, so the market was fair game.

Cyberpunk was released first in 1988 and was a cited by Paul Hume as an influence for Shadowrun, which was released a year later in 1989. FASA added magic and fantasy races, and tied the setting directly to their Earthdawn setting, which was enough to prevent any sort of IP infringement on Cyberpunk.

There was no need for FASA to try to "prevent any sort of IP infringement on Cyberpunk" since there was no IP infringement in the first place. The fact that Shadowrun shares a genre with R. Talsorian's Cyberpunk doesn't mean it infringed in R. Talsorian's IP. Genre doesn't equal intellectual property.  That's like suggesting that any RPG in which PCs explore dungeons is an infringement on D&D. That's not the way things work.


Also, Earthdawn wasn't released until 1993, 4 years after Shadowrun, and the connections between the games had *nothing* to do with attempting to prevent IP infringement.


Lou Prosperi
Earthdawn Product Line Developer, FASA, 1992-1998

Jesus Wept you people need to take out a grant and buy multiple clues.

Cyberpunk 2020 came out in 1988, Shadowrun in 1989. Considering development times and SR's bumpy development. It might well have been in the works before CP2020 for all we know.. More likely SR was in development before CP2020 came out. but finished after CP2020. They bear little in common past what they share in common with like 50% of all cyberpunk products. On top of that. CP2020 uses d10s while SR uses only d6s.

Now if you want to compare. Shadowrun and CP2020's Nights Edge from 92 setting bear some overlap. But come at it from different angles.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: jhkim on September 20, 2022, 02:32:45 PM
In any case, I think WotC has no right to the Star Frontiers trademark and it would set a dangerous precedent if the judge rules in their favor. NuTSR is right: WotC abandoned Star Frontiers and selling shitty scans of books from the 1980s shouldn’t count towards maintaining the trademark. The trademark would have already lapsed decades ago.

Why didn’t WotC do anything when Sasquatch snatched the Alternity trademark? Hm? It’s actually caused brand confusion: I saw a moderator on Enworld claim falsely that WotC didn’t have the rights to Alternity, not understanding the difference between copyright and trademark law. Reviewers complained that Sasquatch wasn’t selling the old books, not understanding how copyright works.

Again, I'm not a lawyer, but in general, I feel like what LaNasa did with trademark was slimy and deceptive. I didn't know about what Sasquatch did with the Alternity trademark - but from what I can tell of the new Alternity (a) it is co-authored by one of the original authors of the original, and (b) WotC is not offering PDFs of the original Alternity for sale.

Trying to bank on a deceptive trademark with a purely unrelated product seems exactly against the intent of trademark law in the first place.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on September 20, 2022, 02:38:50 PM
WOTC was enforcing their copyright at least as far back as 2018:

Quote from: Tom Stephens, Star Frontiersman website, 2/26/2018

I was contacted last week by WotC to let me know that they were revoking my permissions to post materials related to the Star Frontiers game and the original Dragon magazine articles.

I'm not a copyright expert, but Nu-TSR formed in 2020, so how can they win this?
WotC owns the copyrights until they expire in 2080 or so. They can give and revoke permission at whim, subject to contract stipulations.

Trademark has to be actively maintained or else it lapses. WotC claims they retained/reclaimed the trademark through common law, altho it remains to be seen whether that holds up in court. I don't believe they did enough to keep it and I belief the PDF sales of old books while letting the IP gather dust is exploiting a loophole in trademark law that goes against the original spirit of the law. Which is further complicated by the fact that copyright terms have been extended to absurd lengths that were never accounted for by the original laws, and the fact that the trademark is effectively worthless without the original IP to go along with it.

nuTSR poisoned the well with their bigotry so even if I hate WotC's business practices, I have no choice but to support them or else I'm on the side of nuTSR.

In any case, I think WotC has no right to the Star Frontiers trademark and it would set a dangerous precedent if the judge rules in their favor. NuTSR is right: WotC abandoned Star Frontiers and selling shitty scans of books from the 1980s shouldn’t count towards maintaining the trademark. The trademark would have already lapsed decades ago.

Why didn’t WotC do anything when Sasquatch snatched the Alternity trademark? Hm? It’s actually caused brand confusion: I saw a moderator on Enworld claim falsely that WotC didn’t have the rights to Alternity, not understanding the difference between copyright and trademark law. Reviewers complained that Sasquatch wasn’t selling the old books, not understanding how copyright works.

Again, I'm not a lawyer, but in general, I feel like what LaNasa did with trademark was slimy and deceptive. I didn't know about what Sasquatch did with the Alternity trademark - but from what I can tell of the new Alternity (a) it is co-authored by one of the original authors of the original, and (b) WotC is not offering PDFs of the original Alternity for sale.

Trying to bank on a deceptive trademark with a purely unrelated product seems exactly against the intent of trademark law in the first place.

After looking into it more, I feel bad for the Sasquatch folks. They tried to capitalize on the trademark lapse in an attempt to reclaim their own work, but were held back by copyright and fan expectations. Doesn't excuse them going MIA, but I can understand if they got burned out after realizing they bit off more than they could chew.

What Lanasa is doing is clearly slimy and deceptive, yeah.

In any case, I think WotC has no right to the Star Frontiers trademark and it would set a dangerous precedent if the judge rules in their favor. NuTSR is right: WotC abandoned Star Frontiers and selling shitty scans of books from the 1980s shouldn’t count towards maintaining the trademark. The trademark would have already lapsed decades ago.

Why didn’t WotC do anything when Sasquatch snatched the Alternity trademark? Hm? It’s actually caused brand confusion: I saw a moderator on Enworld claim falsely that WotC didn’t have the rights to Alternity, not understanding the difference between copyright and trademark law. Reviewers complained that Sasquatch wasn’t selling the old books, not understanding how copyright works.

That NuTSR is racist is irrelevant to the facts of the case. WotC lost fair and square, they have no intention of fairly maintaining the trademark, now they’re just being sore losers about it.

If the judge rules in WotC’s favor out of personal preference rather than the facts (WotC obviously lost the trademark decades ago), then that will have unintended and potentially dangerous consequences for trademark law. Back when trademark law was drafted, we didn’t have ebook retailers that made copies of a book infinitely available as long the store existed. If the existence of libraries doesn’t count toward trademark, then ebook retailers and streaming services shouldn’t either because they’re basically privatized libraries.

I mean, I don’t think any other company would defend a trademark they haven’t been actively using for decades, much less win another case like this in court. Do you?

After reviewing the facts that you related here, it seems that WOTC's main beef is they want to use any tool at their disposal to make sure that any racist (either real racist like the alleged quotes given above, or "racist" in the woke sense) content isn't associated with them in any way.  And yeah, I don't want to see trademark laws get the Disney treatment that made the Mouse so privilaged.
From WOTC’s standpoint I think the most important thing is that they have to engage in the legal fight against nuTSR whether they win or not. They can’t be seen as just taking in stride nuTSR creating a StormFront version of Star Frontiers.

The other thing Hasbro will learn is that they will have to dedicate some effort to make sure no other trademark or other IP related to WOTC is ever allowed to be vulnerable to “capture” by an outside party ever again. I think what nuTSR is doing with Star Frontiers probably never crossed Hasbro’s collective mind, but now that it has they will be much more guarded with all their IPs much more than before.
I'm hoping this means that WotC will start selling the original PDFs again in order to maintain their trademarks. While I still dislike corpos on principle, doing that would make it much easier for new people to get into the older games without worrying about being sued for copyright infringement.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: Effete on September 20, 2022, 04:03:41 PM
Jesus Wept you people need to take out a grant and buy multiple clues.

Cyberpunk 2020 came out in 1988, Shadowrun in 1989. Considering development times and SR's bumpy development. It might well have been in the works before CP2020 for all we know.. More likely SR was in development before CP2020 came out. but finished after CP2020. They bear little in common past what they share in common with like 50% of all cyberpunk products. On top of that. CP2020 uses d10s while SR uses only d6s.

So your evidence is... conjecture?
Finding the interview is like finding a needle in a haystack, but one of the original authors (I want to say Hume) stated that Cyberpunk was an inspiration for how Shadowrun came together. You don't have to believe me, I don't really care. But until I can track down the quote, we have exactly the same amount of supporting evidence: bumkiss!

Also, game mechanics don't fall under copyright. Just FYI.

Quote
Now if you want to compare. Shadowrun and CP2020's Nights Edge from 92 setting bear some overlap. But come at it from different angles.

Yeah, that's my entire point! Game developers borrow from each other all the time. It's the process of making it UNIQUE that develops an IP.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: zircher on September 20, 2022, 04:16:28 PM
Can they both lose?
We live in hope.
Since they will both incur legal expenses and other damages, the answer is yes.  :-)
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: Effete on September 20, 2022, 05:18:45 PM
I've had trouble locating the actual legal briefing of TSR's complaint without some website wanting me to sign up. I'll keep looking, but THIS SITE (https://unicourt.com/case/pc-db5-tsr-llc-v-wizards-of-the-coast-llc-1106761) at least provides a summary of the complaint, including a full docket of the proceedings.

Here are some interesting facts:
TSR (LaNasa) files the initial complaint in Dec. 2021
WotC files their preliminary injunction (against the racist remarks) in Aug. 2022

Considering the battle has been going on for almost a year, and Wizard's is only now pulling the race-card tells me they (WotC) are desperate for a win. Now, all things considered, I think the injunction should be upheld. Whether the screenshots of Nu-StarFrontiers was leaked by a good samaritan or by the assclown LaNasa himself as some kind of stupid shitpost (and the guy LOVES to shitpost) is irrelevant; if that book goes into publication under the SF name, it can cause damage to WotC's brand. Period.

The issue with the use of trademarks, however, is less straight-forward. According to the summary, LaNasa (TSR) had repeatedly asked Wizards to show proof of ownership, which they failed to do. Wizards claims that because they license digital scans of out-of-print books to OneBookShelf for PoD service that they are "using" the trademarks. As I mentioned twice already, that is weak-ass sauce. Digital scans of old books are essentially "used copies" that OBS has the licensing rights to Xerox. WotC's argument is tantamount to saying that if a used bookstore sells an old copy of a 70 year old book, then the trademark is still "in use." This is stupid on it's face, and in my estimate, LaNasa owns the trademarks (if not the IP).
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: Effete on September 20, 2022, 05:25:21 PM
WOTC was enforcing their copyright at least as far back as 2018:

Quote from: Tom Stephens, Star Frontiersman website, 2/26/2018

I was contacted last week by WotC to let me know that they were revoking my permissions to post materials related to the Star Frontiers game and the original Dragon magazine articles.

I'm not a copyright expert, but Nu-TSR formed in 2020, so how can they win this?

I can tell someone to stop printing shirts with the CokeCola logo it them. It doesn't mean I own the trademark to the logo. WotC allowed their ownership of the trademark to expire, but obviously think the law doesn't apply to them. It doesn't surprise me they think they can just boss people around because they bought something and threw it into their closet for 20+ years.

Edit - That notice to Tom Stevens coincides with the year WotC licensed old StarFrontier books to OBS. 2nd Edit - nope, sorry. OBS had the license since 2012. :razz [strike]So, basically, Wizards didn't care about the trademarks or IP until they decided to start making money off it.[/strike] Amended- Wizards didn't care about the trademark and IP WHILE they were also making money off it. Tom's use of the word "permissions" is interesting though. Did he have a WRITTEN permission from WotC, or is that word just used as a colloquialism? I'll need to dive into that when I get a chance.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on September 20, 2022, 05:32:32 PM
Thanks for the explanation Effete. I kept seeing people claiming that WotC was maintaining the trademark by selling the PDFs, which I thought was weak too.

Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: Effete on September 20, 2022, 05:43:30 PM
Thanks for the explanation Effete. I kept seeing people claiming that WotC was maintaining the trademark by selling the PDFs, which I thought was weak too.

NP.

I owe you an apology, btw.
My last post to you may have been a bit abrasive. I wasn't sure if your comment about people not knowing the difference between copyright and trademark was aimed at me or not, and I took to the offensive. After rereading your earlier posts, I would not group you in with the common laymen. So sorry if I insulted your intelligence.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on September 20, 2022, 06:16:16 PM
Thanks for the explanation Effete. I kept seeing people claiming that WotC was maintaining the trademark by selling the PDFs, which I thought was weak too.

NP.

I owe you an apology, btw.
My last post to you may have been a bit abrasive. I wasn't sure if your comment about people not knowing the difference between copyright and trademark was aimed at me or not, and I took to the offensive. After rereading your earlier posts, I would not group you in with the common laymen. So sorry if I insulted your intelligence.
I’m sorry if I insulted you. I wasn’t aiming that at anyone in particular, but I definitely could’ve worded it better. I’m sorry.

This whole fiasco has reignited my suppressed hatred for WotC’s boneheaded decisions over the years that resulted in a lot of books being lost. Back in 2008 they took down their pdfs of old books (only some of which have been restored since), and they intimidated a lot of d20 publishers into ceasing sales/preservation of their books. It’s incredibly frustrating for me because I’m reliant on Drivethrurpg to store and organize my pdfs because 1) it the most reliant option since other websites are probe to suddenly dying and 2) I literally don’t have room in my house to keep and organize physical copies.

I’m so frustrated with all this bullshit that I’m pretty much swearing off anything that isn’t released under creative commons or that I made myself. I’ve gonna write my own settings and stories because I seriously cannot rely on corpos or fandoms to do it for me.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: jhkim on September 20, 2022, 06:42:57 PM
Back in 2008 they took down their pdfs of old books (only some of which have been restored since), and they intimidated a lot of d20 publishers into ceasing sales/preservation of their books. It’s incredibly frustrating for me because I’m reliant on Drivethrurpg to store and organize my pdfs because 1) it the most reliant option since other websites are probe to suddenly dying and 2) I literally don’t have room in my house to keep and organize physical copies.

I’m so frustrated with all this bullshit that I’m pretty much swearing off anything that isn’t released under creative commons or that I made myself. I’ve gonna write my own settings and stories because I seriously cannot rely on corpos or fandoms to do it for me.

Couldn't you keep the PDFs organized on disk, rather than relying on access via Drivethrurpg? That's a lot easier than physical copies, and disk space is cheap these days. I rarely rely on any cloud storage. I keep all my PDFs on my drive and I have a backup disk just in case.

Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: Effete on September 20, 2022, 06:56:13 PM
Back in 2008 they took down their pdfs of old books (only some of which have been restored since), and they intimidated a lot of d20 publishers into ceasing sales/preservation of their books. It’s incredibly frustrating for me because I’m reliant on Drivethrurpg to store and organize my pdfs because 1) it the most reliant option since other websites are probe to suddenly dying and 2) I literally don’t have room in my house to keep and organize physical copies.

I’m so frustrated with all this bullshit that I’m pretty much swearing off anything that isn’t released under creative commons or that I made myself. I’ve gonna write my own settings and stories because I seriously cannot rely on corpos or fandoms to do it for me.

Couldn't you keep the PDFs organized on disk, rather than relying on access via Drivethrurpg? That's a lot easier than physical copies, and disk space is cheap these days. I rarely rely on any cloud storage. I keep all my PDFs on my drive and I have a backup disk just in case.

^^This

Except I use multiple sources. I use a GoogleDrive and Mega for cloud storage (and redundancy), but I also have an external HD and backup USBs. I don't trust DTRPG to maintain an accurate account of my downloads. Not that I've had any issues, but considering how they cave to the woke mob and remove products, I don't want to be stuck in a situation where something I bought but never downloaded is just suddenly gone.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on September 20, 2022, 07:16:25 PM
Back in 2008 they took down their pdfs of old books (only some of which have been restored since), and they intimidated a lot of d20 publishers into ceasing sales/preservation of their books. It’s incredibly frustrating for me because I’m reliant on Drivethrurpg to store and organize my pdfs because 1) it the most reliant option since other websites are probe to suddenly dying and 2) I literally don’t have room in my house to keep and organize physical copies.

I’m so frustrated with all this bullshit that I’m pretty much swearing off anything that isn’t released under creative commons or that I made myself. I’ve gonna write my own settings and stories because I seriously cannot rely on corpos or fandoms to do it for me.

Couldn't you keep the PDFs organized on disk, rather than relying on access via Drivethrurpg? That's a lot easier than physical copies, and disk space is cheap these days. I rarely rely on any cloud storage. I keep all my PDFs on my drive and I have a backup disk just in case.

^^This

Except I use multiple sources. I use a GoogleDrive and Mega for cloud storage (and redundancy), but I also have an external HD and backup USBs. I don't trust DTRPG to maintain an accurate account of my downloads. Not that I've had any issues, but considering how they cave to the woke mob and remove products, I don't want to be stuck in a situation where something I bought but never downloaded is just suddenly gone.
I tried storing my pdfs on storage drives over the years as I went through computers and I’ve pretty much lost track of all the files over the years. I’ve bought around a thousand books for research, most of which I still haven’t read. Drivethrurpg just makes things so much easier for me… at least until publishers go crazy and take away your books. I noticed that some of my older purchases from before the RPGNow merger don’t have working links anymore, like Alliance & Horde Compendium or Externals. Sigh.

I’ve absolutely had it with these stupid corpos. They can fuck off and die in a fire. I’m not gonna buy their products anymore.

I’m gonna make my own stories and settings from now on. And I guess patronize indie titles?

I’m so exasperated with all this bullshit.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: DocJones on September 20, 2022, 08:14:27 PM
It’s incredibly frustrating for me because I’m reliant on Drivethrurpg to store and organize my pdfs because 1) it the most reliant option since other websites are probe to suddenly dying and 2) I literally don’t have room in my house to keep and organize physical copies.

The DriveThruRPG app stores all the pdfs you purchased locally.  You can back up the location (the library folder) if you want.  Also it allows you to keep older versions of books that are updated.

Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on September 20, 2022, 09:02:38 PM
Honestly, my beef is more with the unfortunate fact that the more obscure a ttrpg is, the more difficult it is to find people who are interested in it. Ease of access is a key factor in this: if it’s not easy to acquire copies, then its exposure is severely limited. Another is age. As much as I hate to admit it, the content of books still ages. This is most readily obvious in contemporary and scifi settings, as timelines and technologies in real life march on. My copy of Star*Drive lists floppy drives as a game changing technology.

I would love if WotC could extend GM’s guild to support their other IPs. Even if WotC is unwilling to do anything with the IPs, I’m sure that fans would love to make their own books.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: Effete on September 20, 2022, 10:20:56 PM
I would love if WotC could extend GM’s guild to support their other IPs. Even if WotC is unwilling to do anything with the IPs, I’m sure that fans would love to make their own books.

I feel the same way about the Savage Worlds Adventure's Guild (SWAG), which is pretty much an extension of their free Fan License. SWAG products must deal exclusively with DTRPG, which I'm increasingly distancing myself from. I have no problem giving PEG their cut as a "licensing fee," but I don't want to give a percentage to DTRPG for hosting the content, especially since there is literally no alternative platform.

Combined with some of their questionable business practices lately, as well as some shoddy content, I'm moving away from Savage Worlds too. Their Fantasy Companion (still in beta testing) is trying REALLY hard to emulate the "feel" of 5e mechanics, and it's bogging down the otherwise smooth resolution of the core system. I took a gamble and vented my frustration on their forums and was surprised at the support I got. Don't think it'll change PEG's mind (nor should it, TBH), but it seems people agree it not the direction SW should be going.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on September 21, 2022, 10:09:28 AM
I would love if WotC could extend GM’s guild to support their other IPs. Even if WotC is unwilling to do anything with the IPs, I’m sure that fans would love to make their own books.

I feel the same way about the Savage Worlds Adventure's Guild (SWAG), which is pretty much an extension of their free Fan License. SWAG products must deal exclusively with DTRPG, which I'm increasingly distancing myself from. I have no problem giving PEG their cut as a "licensing fee," but I don't want to give a percentage to DTRPG for hosting the content, especially since there is literally no alternative platform.

Combined with some of their questionable business practices lately, as well as some shoddy content, I'm moving away from Savage Worlds too. Their Fantasy Companion (still in beta testing) is trying REALLY hard to emulate the "feel" of 5e mechanics, and it's bogging down the otherwise smooth resolution of the core system. I took a gamble and vented my frustration on their forums and was surprised at the support I got. Don't think it'll change PEG's mind (nor should it, TBH), but it seems people agree it not the direction SW should be going.
I hear you. I've become increasingly disillusioned with ttrpgs as a whole because of the abandonware problem inadvertently forcing otherwise paying customers to sail the high seas, the takeover by leftwing proto-fascism, the general insularity of the market making it impossible for new creators to break in, so many fertile IPs being left to rot due to owner apathy and broken copyright law even if you can still buy ebooks (and whether they will continue to be hosted is playing Russian roulette now), venerable IPs being stuck in nostalgia ruts that prevent them from going anywhere interesting, venerable IPs being ran roughshod by new owners to constantly attract new players while leaving old players in the dust, that stupid supplement treadmill... I know some of these are issues with all IP industries, but the niche appeal of ttrpgs means they can't break out of it.

Want to make your own IP due to creative disagreements or the feeling that you can do something new, original, and fresh compared to the dinosaurs dominating the market? Well, you're unlikely to get a foothold unless a big company does something really stupid to alienate their customers enough to convince them to try other games, and those same customers will abandon your game as soon as the IP they previously liked makes a token effort to apologize.

Unless creators release their work under a creative commons license that keeps it in circulation (such as being hosted on the Internet Archive without risk of being DMCA'd) and promotes fan creativity (as opposed to worshiping teh "lore" as a religious text that cannot be deviated from), then I don't feel like investing in other people's work is worth it anymore. I feel like I'm better off writing prose fiction to sell on Kindle Unlimited or video games because those have a much bigger and healthier market.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: Armchair Gamer on September 21, 2022, 01:49:43 PM
Combined with some of their questionable business practices lately, as well as some shoddy content, I'm moving away from Savage Worlds too. Their Fantasy Companion (still in beta testing) is trying REALLY hard to emulate the "feel" of 5e mechanics, and it's bogging down the otherwise smooth resolution of the core system. I took a gamble and vented my frustration on their forums and was surprised at the support I got. Don't think it'll change PEG's mind (nor should it, TBH), but it seems people agree it not the direction SW should be going.

  Got a link to the discussion? You've piqued my curiosity.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: Effete on September 21, 2022, 02:27:17 PM
Combined with some of their questionable business practices lately, as well as some shoddy content, I'm moving away from Savage Worlds too. Their Fantasy Companion (still in beta testing) is trying REALLY hard to emulate the "feel" of 5e mechanics, and it's bogging down the otherwise smooth resolution of the core system. I took a gamble and vented my frustration on their forums and was surprised at the support I got. Don't think it'll change PEG's mind (nor should it, TBH), but it seems people agree it not the direction SW should be going.

  Got a link to the discussion? You've piqued my curiosity.

Yep, HERE (https://www.pegforum.com/forum/savage-worlds/savage-worlds-general-chat/63039-play-session-fc-1-2-rules?p=63123#post63123).
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: Armchair Gamer on September 21, 2022, 02:41:08 PM
Yep, HERE (https://www.pegforum.com/forum/savage-worlds/savage-worlds-general-chat/63039-play-session-fc-1-2-rules?p=63123#post63123).

 Thank you!
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: Jaeger on September 21, 2022, 05:00:44 PM
...
Want to make your own IP due to creative disagreements or the feeling that you can do something new, original, and fresh compared to the dinosaurs dominating the market? Well, you're unlikely to get a foothold unless a big company does something really stupid to alienate their customers enough to convince them to try other games, and those same customers will abandon your game as soon as the IP they previously liked makes a token effort to apologize.
...

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ETICMjgWAAA5ixT.jpg)


RPG fans are fanatically loyal to the first movers in any given RPG genre.

This is why Palladium games is still around in spite of known system issues with no edition to correct them on the near horizon.

It's why PF got dropped like a hot potato when 5e came out. It's why Vampire/WoD continues to be a thing in spite of epic mismanagement.

The economics of the domestic print industry changed in the 90's, making it epically harder for new start up RPG companies to come along and do what White Wolf did. That is why today all the top RPG sellers are dominated by companies that already have an industry foothold.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: Omega on September 24, 2022, 05:56:27 PM
Jesus Wept you people need to take out a grant and buy multiple clues.

Cyberpunk 2020 came out in 1988, Shadowrun in 1989. Considering development times and SR's bumpy development. It might well have been in the works before CP2020 for all we know.. More likely SR was in development before CP2020 came out. but finished after CP2020. They bear little in common past what they share in common with like 50% of all cyberpunk products. On top of that. CP2020 uses d10s while SR uses only d6s.

So your evidence is... conjecture?

No. My point is experience with development times.

Try again please.
Title: Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
Post by: Chris24601 on September 25, 2022, 11:51:25 AM
Jesus Wept you people need to take out a grant and buy multiple clues.

Cyberpunk 2020 came out in 1988, Shadowrun in 1989. Considering development times and SR's bumpy development. It might well have been in the works before CP2020 for all we know.. More likely SR was in development before CP2020 came out. but finished after CP2020. They bear little in common past what they share in common with like 50% of all cyberpunk products. On top of that. CP2020 uses d10s while SR uses only d6s.

So your evidence is... conjecture?

No. My point is experience with development times.

Try again please.
To be fair, those who are only familiar with the “use OGL mechanics + creative commons art packs + PDF/POD distribution” model of RPG creation might think less than a year is enough time to churn out an entire RPG game.

Just as a historical note for the unaware; the digital printing press didn’t even exist until 1989. The PDF was invented in 1993. Windows 3.0 (the first to see wide adoption) came out in 1993. Non-usenet Internet access via dial-up was also c. 1993.

Designing an RPG in the late 80’s meant DOS-based word processing, correspondence with offsite collaborators via phone and snail mail, and old school typesetting for offset printing runs. Oh, and having to actually design your own original mechanics for everything because the OGL wasn’t even a twinkle in Ryan Dancy’s eyes yet.

Not only were Cyberpunk and Shadowrun almost certainly being developed concurrently, the lack of internet communications means that the two developers were probably entirely unaware of what the other was in the process of developing.