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Author Topic: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?  (Read 9156 times)

Mistwell

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Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
« Reply #75 on: September 18, 2022, 09:37:11 PM »
For fuck's sake. It seems like virtually nobody on this site has actually followed this issue much.

How do you guys not realize it was NuTSR that sued WOTC first?
« Last Edit: September 18, 2022, 09:38:57 PM by Mistwell »

Batjon

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Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
« Reply #76 on: September 18, 2022, 10:19:24 PM »
There are pre-built alien species in the core books and rules to very easily create your own.  There are also several supplements and Frontier Explorer magazine, the latter of which has tens of issues out currently.

Batjon

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Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
« Reply #77 on: September 18, 2022, 10:20:04 PM »
How do you guys not realize it was NuTSR that sued WOTC first?

For the record, I remember it.  I had commented in threads in regard to it in places.

Effete

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Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
« Reply #78 on: September 18, 2022, 10:44:13 PM »
However, courts have ruled that if enough changes are made so that the products are "similar" but not "exact," then no copyright infringement takes place. This is how FASA got away with completely ripping off R.Talsorian Cyberpunk.

Wut?

You're telling me you never noticed the similarities between the premise of the two games? Both involve fighting a culture war against huge megacorps and jacking your consciousness into a massive digital network. Even the term "runners" is shared. Sure, you can say they both ripped off William Gibson, but Gibson never wrote a TTRPG, so the market was fair game.

Cyberpunk was released first in 1988 and was a cited by Paul Hume as an influence for Shadowrun, which was released a year later in 1989. FASA added magic and fantasy races, and tied the setting directly to their Earthdawn setting, which was enough to prevent any sort of IP infringement on Cyberpunk.

Effete

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Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
« Reply #79 on: September 18, 2022, 10:47:40 PM »
For fuck's sake. It seems like virtually nobody on this site has actually followed this issue much.

How do you guys not realize it was NuTSR that sued WOTC first?

Guilty as charged.

I've been too busy to get into the whole issue, so I was just taking other people's word on some things. Not trying to scapegoat. It's my fault too.

Mistwell

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Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
« Reply #80 on: September 18, 2022, 11:27:25 PM »
For fuck's sake. It seems like virtually nobody on this site has actually followed this issue much.

How do you guys not realize it was NuTSR that sued WOTC first?

Guilty as charged.

I've been too busy to get into the whole issue, so I was just taking other people's word on some things. Not trying to scapegoat. It's my fault too.

That's...totally fair.

Anyway, NuTSR even crowd funded their lawsuit against WOTC. A part of their lawsuit was to challenge the "Warning" portion of WOTC's electronic sales of older books.

Effete

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Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
« Reply #81 on: September 19, 2022, 12:45:13 AM »
Guilty as charged.

I've been too busy to get into the whole issue, so I was just taking other people's word on some things. Not trying to scapegoat. It's my fault too.

That's...totally fair.

Anyway, NuTSR even crowd funded their lawsuit against WOTC. A part of their lawsuit was to challenge the "Warning" portion of WOTC's electronic sales of older books.

I'm gonna try to hunt down the legal briefing on nuTSR's lawsuit tomorrow, but I just got through reading most of Wizard's counterclaim. Primarily WotC seeks an injunction to prevent the racist and exclusionary content that LaNasa made from going into publication. So this isn't actually a defamation suit, just a preliminary injunction to prevent any possible future damages. Personally, I agree one-hundred percent with Wizards on this. As long as they continue to hold the distribution rights to old Star Frontiers material, they COULD potentially see damages from LaNasa's stupid remarks. (Wizards is more than welcome to damage their brand without anyone elses help.)

As for the battle over the trademarks, I'll need to see nuTSR's evidence in full, but it looks like WotC are banking on "commonlaw" use since they continue to sell products with those marks. As I mentioned in an earlier post, that does not equate to "actively" using the marks, so LaNasa may actually have a strong claim to the names. Without any of the associated trademarks to SF, though, all he has is a legacy name. If the courts rule his claim is legitimate, he'd be in a good position to seek acquirement of the IP from Wizard's, citing exactly the reason Wizards is: conflict of interest. As I mentioned earlier, this is going to a messy, embroiled suit, and will ultimately come down to who has the deeper pockets.

But honestly, even if LaNasa wins, is anyone seriously going to buy anything from him?
I know I won't. It really seems like he has so little to gain from all this.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2022, 12:58:42 AM by Effete »

Effete

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Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
« Reply #82 on: September 19, 2022, 01:06:38 AM »
So, the presiding judge on this case is one S.Kate Vaughn. This is one of her courtroom rules:
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The parties and counsel are encouraged to advise the Court of their pronouns and may do so by including their pronouns in signature lines or advising the in-court deputy clerk of pronouns and honorifics before a hearing begins, either via email or in person.

LaNasa's FUCKED !! ;D ;D

Omega

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Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
« Reply #83 on: September 19, 2022, 09:06:02 AM »
I’ll have to check that out. Unfortunately the alien options seem too sparse. One of the best parts of TSR’s scifi games like Star Frontiers, Galactos Barrier, and Star*Drive was their diverse roster of aliens.

Um... Star Frontiers had all of 4 aliens to select from. Human, Vrusk, Dralasite and Yazirian. Which I happen to like for its spartan use where other games drop in sometimes dozens of aliens. And no Zebulon's Guide doesnt count. Its practically a new game and setting.

As for WOTC. Who knows at this point. But as noted. They have contacted various fan groups and made it clear they own the IP and that they intend to blockade certain uses. Including ones that had prior agreements.

BoxCrayonTales

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Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
« Reply #84 on: September 19, 2022, 10:55:30 AM »
I’ll have to check that out. Unfortunately the alien options seem too sparse. One of the best parts of TSR’s scifi games like Star Frontiers, Galactos Barrier, and Star*Drive was their diverse roster of aliens.
Someone should crowdsource an Alien Bestiary Petty Gods style.
Here's a starting point: http://jbr.me.uk/exo/

I’ll have to check that out. Unfortunately the alien options seem too sparse. One of the best parts of TSR’s scifi games like Star Frontiers, Galactos Barrier, and Star*Drive was their diverse roster of aliens.

Um... Star Frontiers had all of 4 aliens to select from. Human, Vrusk, Dralasite and Yazirian. Which I happen to like for its spartan use where other games drop in sometimes dozens of aliens. And no Zebulon's Guide doesnt count. Its practically a new game and setting.
Well excuse me for being spoiled.

LouProsperi

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Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
« Reply #85 on: September 19, 2022, 12:38:15 PM »
However, courts have ruled that if enough changes are made so that the products are "similar" but not "exact," then no copyright infringement takes place. This is how FASA got away with completely ripping off R.Talsorian Cyberpunk.

Wut?

You're telling me you never noticed the similarities between the premise of the two games? Both involve fighting a culture war against huge megacorps and jacking your consciousness into a massive digital network. Even the term "runners" is shared. Sure, you can say they both ripped off William Gibson, but Gibson never wrote a TTRPG, so the market was fair game.

Cyberpunk was released first in 1988 and was a cited by Paul Hume as an influence for Shadowrun, which was released a year later in 1989. FASA added magic and fantasy races, and tied the setting directly to their Earthdawn setting, which was enough to prevent any sort of IP infringement on Cyberpunk.

There was no need for FASA to try to "prevent any sort of IP infringement on Cyberpunk" since there was no IP infringement in the first place. The fact that Shadowrun shares a genre with R. Talsorian's Cyberpunk doesn't mean it infringed in R. Talsorian's IP. Genre doesn't equal intellectual property.  That's like suggesting that any RPG in which PCs explore dungeons is an infringement on D&D. That's not the way things work.


Also, Earthdawn wasn't released until 1993, 4 years after Shadowrun, and the connections between the games had *nothing* to do with attempting to prevent IP infringement.


Lou Prosperi
Earthdawn Product Line Developer, FASA, 1992-1998

Effete

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Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
« Reply #86 on: September 19, 2022, 01:16:57 PM »
There was no need for FASA to try to "prevent any sort of IP infringement on Cyberpunk" since there was no IP infringement in the first place. The fact that Shadowrun shares a genre with R. Talsorian's Cyberpunk doesn't mean it infringed in R. Talsorian's IP. Genre doesn't equal intellectual property.  That's like suggesting that any RPG in which PCs explore dungeons is an infringement on D&D. That's not the way things work.

I wasn't trying to suggest that the developers of Shadowrun were doing anything nefarious, only that despite any similarities between the games, they are legally different IPs. As far as I know, Mike Pondsmith never even considered litigation, so I'm not making any implication there was even a dispute. My only point was to demonstrate how fragile "IP protection" can be in a court of law, specifically as it pertains to this WoctC/TRS debacle.

While saying FASA "ripped off" R.Tal was a bit hyperbolic, the overt similarities between the games does go slightly beyond merely being in the same genre. Again, not saying that's a bad thing. Many times a "rip off" game is more fun than the one that inspired it.

Quote
Also, Earthdawn wasn't released until 1993, 4 years after Shadowrun, and the connections between the games had *nothing* to do with attempting to prevent IP infringement.


Lou Prosperi
Earthdawn Product Line Developer, FASA, 1992-1998

Ah, so tying the two settings together was something that came later then? My bad! Thanks for clearing that up.

BoxCrayonTales

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Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
« Reply #87 on: September 19, 2022, 01:35:36 PM »
While saying FASA "ripped off" R.Tal was a bit hyperbolic, the overt similarities between the games does go slightly beyond merely being in the same genre. Again, not saying that's a bad thing. Many times a "rip off" game is more fun than the one that inspired it.
Probably because a new game is free to reexamine assumptions and go in new directions. Existing IPs are typically stuck with ancient baggage that severely limits their versatility and creativity. Well, you could try to do something new but doing so always provokes edition wars. Which I've never really understood for RPG properties. For passive media going in new directions really is a zero sum game unless you're really into fanfiction (and that's always hit or miss at best), but for RPGs the books are only ever guidelines. Annoyed that the devs have become burned out and want to do something new? Annoyed that the devs have become stuck in a perpetual circular nostalgia rut that constantly repackages the same old shit over and over without meaningful difference? Well, they usually don't take away the old books and you can still make stuff up for that, or just make up your own game like the guys doing CryptWorld, Mutant Future, nuAlternity, FrontierSpace, etc.

LouProsperi

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Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
« Reply #88 on: September 19, 2022, 04:17:50 PM »
Also, Earthdawn wasn't released until 1993, 4 years after Shadowrun, and the connections between the games had *nothing* to do with attempting to prevent IP infringement.


Lou Prosperi
Earthdawn Product Line Developer, FASA, 1992-1998

Ah, so tying the two settings together was something that came later then? My bad! Thanks for clearing that up.

Yes, it came later. Right from the beginning of Shadowrun it was clear that it was not the first time magic had been present in the world. There were numerous references to magic "returning", so the idea that there had been a past age of magic was part of the setting.

However, FASA decided to publish Earthdawn later, and it wasn't always going to be connected to Shadowrun. There was some debate (which was before my time) about whether it should be the past magical world hinted at in Shadowrun, or something separate.

By the time I was hired (in December 1992), the debate was over, and and FASA had decided that Earthdawn would indeed be the previous age of magic alluded to in Shadowrun.


Thanks!

Lou Prosperi

Effete

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Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
« Reply #89 on: September 20, 2022, 12:04:57 AM »
While saying FASA "ripped off" R.Tal was a bit hyperbolic, the overt similarities between the games does go slightly beyond merely being in the same genre. Again, not saying that's a bad thing. Many times a "rip off" game is more fun than the one that inspired it.
Probably because a new game is free to reexamine assumptions and go in new directions. Existing IPs are typically stuck with ancient baggage that severely limits their versatility and creativity. Well, you could try to do something new but doing so always provokes edition wars. Which I've never really understood for RPG properties. For passive media going in new directions really is a zero sum game unless you're really into fanfiction (and that's always hit or miss at best), but for RPGs the books are only ever guidelines.

That's a nice ideal, but some games are so dense and crunchy that it's hard to deviate from the written word and make the mechanics fit. It's why I have no issue at all with taking someone else's good idea and making making it your own. Oftentimes a creator gets so absorbed in their own ideas, they don't notice if it works or not. Playtests can solve these issues, but only if you have people willing to point them out.

But, yeah, I have no problems with developers taking a familiar idea and turning it into something new. Whether that's being inspired by another IP or revamping the mechanics of system.