Quote from: jeff37923 on September 15, 2022, 05:44:24 PM

Quote from: FingerRod on September 15, 2022, 04:51:09 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on September 15, 2022, 12:33:59 PM
I think that we are only seeing part of the story.

There is a lot more to this.

Are you saying there is even MORE that will come out or that there is mitigating context missing?

I think that the post and the article in polygon is a hot take on a complex mess used as clickbait.

Outrage is free advertising. I'm personally sick of it, but there's always going to be people who rise to the bait.

If WOTC wanted to enforce their IP, they should have enforced their IP.

Quote from: Palleon on September 15, 2022, 04:51:33 PM

Quote from: Effete on September 15, 2022, 04:40:11 PM
I'm not as familiar with copyright law as I am with property law, so there's things that I may not be privy to, but I think Star Frontiersman would have had a compelling case. Of course, assuming the C&D was issued in 2014, any challenge they WOULD have had has passed the statute of limitation.

Copyright in the current world is effectively until Disney goes bust.  Whenever the Mouse comes up to become public domain, copyrights get extended.

It's Trademarks you need to defend against use and which is what this type of suit is the result of.

Right. I just used "copyright law" as a catch-all, but you're correct in calling me out on it. There is a distinction.
Thanks!

Quote from: jeff37923 on September 15, 2022, 05:44:24 PM

Quote from: FingerRod on September 15, 2022, 04:51:09 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on September 15, 2022, 12:33:59 PM
I think that we are only seeing part of the story.

There is a lot more to this.

Are you saying there is even MORE that will come out or that there is mitigating context missing?

I think that the post and the article in polygon is a hot take on a complex mess used as clickbait.

We already know that NuTSR is run by a shit bag. We also already know that WotC wants to squash them but is on shaky ground since they haven't enforced their IP rights on Star Frontiers.

There will certainly be more to this story.

All fair points. Thanks.

Quote from: FingerRod on September 15, 2022, 06:21:27 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on September 15, 2022, 05:44:24 PM

Quote from: FingerRod on September 15, 2022, 04:51:09 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on September 15, 2022, 12:33:59 PM
I think that we are only seeing part of the story.

There is a lot more to this.

Are you saying there is even MORE that will come out or that there is mitigating context missing?

I think that the post and the article in polygon is a hot take on a complex mess used as clickbait.

We already know that NuTSR is run by a shit bag. We also already know that WotC wants to squash them but is on shaky ground since they haven't enforced their IP rights on Star Frontiers.

There will certainly be more to this story.

All fair points. Thanks.

No problem. I'm paying attention to this story because a lot of great work has been done by the online Dark Sun people and they are in a similar IP situation. The only real difference is that they do their stuff for free while NuTSR intended to sell theirs.

This ain't exactly new, but it's been making the rounds again now that the court proceedings have apparently started on this case. Any sympathy I might have had for NuTSR is long gone by this point. This has been an ever raging dumpster fire from the start.

All that NuTSR has done is make a lot of noise while producing NOTHING. And now they've finally given SJWs that "racism" they've been desperately looking for and finding nowhere till NuTSR came along. Now they get to point and claim that they were right all along (except for, you know...all those times that they weren't. Not that anyone would care).

All that NuTSR has accomplished is being an albatross around the neck of anyone associated with it. This almost makes me want to cheer WotC taking them down.

Not sure why you guys are pearl clutching about this.I wouldn't trust WotC or games "journalists" to tell me the time.

Quote from: Zelen on September 15, 2022, 07:53:58 PM
Not sure why you guys are pearl clutching about this.I wouldn't trust WotC or games "journalists" to tell me the time.

Dunno whose "cluching pearls" here. Do you think the screenshots from the leaked playtest document are fake?

Quote from: Ratman_tf on September 15, 2022, 08:06:11 PM

Quote from: Zelen on September 15, 2022, 07:53:58 PM
Not sure why you guys are pearl clutching about this.I wouldn't trust WotC or games "journalists" to tell me the time.

Dunno whose "cluching pearls" here. Do you think the screenshots from the leaked playtest document are fake?

Is it relevant though?  It seems to be purely a trademark case.  WoTC does not sell Star Frontiers any more.  Not even thru Drive-Thru scans.
It's also pretty clear their ownership of that trademark was cancelled back in the 80's and TSR LLC owns it for both a role-playing games and card games.

The TSR trademark issue seems to be much stronger in WoTC;s favor.

Quote from: DocJones on September 15, 2022, 08:44:24 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on September 15, 2022, 08:06:11 PM

Quote from: Zelen on September 15, 2022, 07:53:58 PM
Not sure why you guys are pearl clutching about this.I wouldn't trust WotC or games "journalists" to tell me the time.

Dunno whose "cluching pearls" here. Do you think the screenshots from the leaked playtest document are fake?

Is it relevant though?  It seems to be purely a trademark case.  WoTC does not sell Star Frontiers any more.  Not even thru Drive-Thru scans.
It's also pretty clear their ownership of that trademark was cancelled back in the 80's and TSR LLC owns it for both a role-playing games and card games.

The TSR trademark issue seems to be much stronger in WoTC;s favor.

I literally just bought Star Frontiers reprints for a few modules that I refuse to pay collector price for.  You may want to check your facts yourself.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/browse/pub/44/Wizards-of-the-Coast/subcategory/9730_29173/Star-Frontiers

Quote from: Palleon on September 15, 2022, 09:01:02 PM

Quote from: DocJones on September 15, 2022, 08:44:24 PM
Is it relevant though?  It seems to be purely a trademark case.  WoTC does not sell Star Frontiers any more.  Not even thru Drive-Thru scans.
It's also pretty clear their ownership of that trademark was cancelled back in the 80's and TSR LLC owns it for both a role-playing games and card games.

The TSR trademark issue seems to be much stronger in WoTC;s favor.

I literally just bought Star Frontiers reprints for a few modules that I refuse to pay collector price for.  You may want to check your facts yourself.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/browse/pub/44/Wizards-of-the-Coast/subcategory/9730_29173/Star-Frontiers

I meant they don't sell the Star Frontiers game itself.
Their disclaimer on drivethru that all their old material might be racist doesn't help their case any.
How can they claim damage to their brand, if they believe the products they themselves published have damaged it. 8-)

Quote from: DocJones on September 15, 2022, 11:41:40 PM
I meant they don't sell the Star Frontiers game itself.
Their disclaimer on drivethru that all their old material might be racist doesn't help their case any.
How can they claim damage to their brand, if they believe the products they themselves published have damaged it. 8-)

What are you even talking about?  Both Alpha Dawn and Knight Hawks rules are in the list of products available.

The disclaimer is there so they don't need to pay someone to go in and give everything the Spell Jammer 5E treatment.  You do have a point that it seems to hurt the "you're going to cause harm to our reputation" side, which shouldn't even be an angle they need to take.  WotC bought everything the real TSR owned for IP.

Quote from: Palleon on September 15, 2022, 09:01:02 PM

Quote from: DocJones on September 15, 2022, 08:44:24 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on September 15, 2022, 08:06:11 PM

Quote from: Zelen on September 15, 2022, 07:53:58 PM
Not sure why you guys are pearl clutching about this.I wouldn't trust WotC or games "journalists" to tell me the time.

Dunno whose "cluching pearls" here. Do you think the screenshots from the leaked playtest document are fake?

Is it relevant though?  It seems to be purely a trademark case.  WoTC does not sell Star Frontiers any more.  Not even thru Drive-Thru scans.
It's also pretty clear their ownership of that trademark was cancelled back in the 80's and TSR LLC owns it for both a role-playing games and card games.

The TSR trademark issue seems to be much stronger in WoTC;s favor.

I literally just bought Star Frontiers reprints for a few modules that I refuse to pay collector price for.  You may want to check your facts yourself.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/browse/pub/44/Wizards-of-the-Coast/subcategory/9730_29173/Star-Frontiers

You don't even need to do that. A quick Google search will lead you to websites that provide the remastered products - with higher production values than what dtrpg is selling.  There is even a project to do Star Frontiers using Moldvay BD&D rules...

Quote from: THE_Leopold on September 15, 2022, 12:49:00 PM
I don't have a copy of Star Frontiers in front of me to cross reference.  That seems highly skeptical that old TSR would go down the race route back in the day.  Seems rather odd choice. 

I have the original TSR SF AND the original playtest materials. Theres no such thing in the book. Any claims that the original SF was in any way Wacist is a flat out lie. But then thats all these cultists do is lie. Even when they tell the truth they have to somehow lie.

Quote from: 3catcircus on September 16, 2022, 08:42:31 AM
You don't even need to do that. A quick Google search will lead you to websites that provide the remastered products - with higher production values than what dtrpg is selling.  There is even a project to do Star Frontiers using Moldvay BD&D rules...

I'm curious why WotC doesn't try to revive d20 Modern so they can revive all their TSR IPs that don't fit strictly into the fantasy genre. They own Star Frontiers, Alternity, Gamma World, Amazing Engine, whatever was featured in Dragon and Dungeon magazines, and a bunch of others I can't remember now.

Quote from: Omega on September 16, 2022, 08:50:12 AM

Quote from: THE_Leopold on September 15, 2022, 12:49:00 PM
I don't have a copy of Star Frontiers in front of me to cross reference.  That seems highly skeptical that old TSR would go down the race route back in the day.  Seems rather odd choice. 

I have the original TSR SF AND the original playtest materials. Theres no such thing in the book. Any claims that the original SF was in any way Wacist is a flat out lie. But then thats all these cultists do is lie. Even when they tell the truth they have to somehow lie.

By "original playtest materials" do you mean original when Star Frontiers first came out, or nuTSR's playtest materials?  And if it's nuTSR's playtest materials, is it the same materials covered in this video (referenced above)?  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fD9evesvAos