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Author Topic: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?  (Read 5235 times)

BoxCrayonTales

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Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
« Reply #105 on: September 20, 2022, 06:16:16 PM »
Thanks for the explanation Effete. I kept seeing people claiming that WotC was maintaining the trademark by selling the PDFs, which I thought was weak too.

NP.

I owe you an apology, btw.
My last post to you may have been a bit abrasive. I wasn't sure if your comment about people not knowing the difference between copyright and trademark was aimed at me or not, and I took to the offensive. After rereading your earlier posts, I would not group you in with the common laymen. So sorry if I insulted your intelligence.
I’m sorry if I insulted you. I wasn’t aiming that at anyone in particular, but I definitely could’ve worded it better. I’m sorry.

This whole fiasco has reignited my suppressed hatred for WotC’s boneheaded decisions over the years that resulted in a lot of books being lost. Back in 2008 they took down their pdfs of old books (only some of which have been restored since), and they intimidated a lot of d20 publishers into ceasing sales/preservation of their books. It’s incredibly frustrating for me because I’m reliant on Drivethrurpg to store and organize my pdfs because 1) it the most reliant option since other websites are probe to suddenly dying and 2) I literally don’t have room in my house to keep and organize physical copies.

I’m so frustrated with all this bullshit that I’m pretty much swearing off anything that isn’t released under creative commons or that I made myself. I’ve gonna write my own settings and stories because I seriously cannot rely on corpos or fandoms to do it for me.

jhkim

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Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
« Reply #106 on: September 20, 2022, 06:42:57 PM »
Back in 2008 they took down their pdfs of old books (only some of which have been restored since), and they intimidated a lot of d20 publishers into ceasing sales/preservation of their books. It’s incredibly frustrating for me because I’m reliant on Drivethrurpg to store and organize my pdfs because 1) it the most reliant option since other websites are probe to suddenly dying and 2) I literally don’t have room in my house to keep and organize physical copies.

I’m so frustrated with all this bullshit that I’m pretty much swearing off anything that isn’t released under creative commons or that I made myself. I’ve gonna write my own settings and stories because I seriously cannot rely on corpos or fandoms to do it for me.

Couldn't you keep the PDFs organized on disk, rather than relying on access via Drivethrurpg? That's a lot easier than physical copies, and disk space is cheap these days. I rarely rely on any cloud storage. I keep all my PDFs on my drive and I have a backup disk just in case.


Effete

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Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
« Reply #107 on: September 20, 2022, 06:56:13 PM »
Back in 2008 they took down their pdfs of old books (only some of which have been restored since), and they intimidated a lot of d20 publishers into ceasing sales/preservation of their books. It’s incredibly frustrating for me because I’m reliant on Drivethrurpg to store and organize my pdfs because 1) it the most reliant option since other websites are probe to suddenly dying and 2) I literally don’t have room in my house to keep and organize physical copies.

I’m so frustrated with all this bullshit that I’m pretty much swearing off anything that isn’t released under creative commons or that I made myself. I’ve gonna write my own settings and stories because I seriously cannot rely on corpos or fandoms to do it for me.

Couldn't you keep the PDFs organized on disk, rather than relying on access via Drivethrurpg? That's a lot easier than physical copies, and disk space is cheap these days. I rarely rely on any cloud storage. I keep all my PDFs on my drive and I have a backup disk just in case.

^^This

Except I use multiple sources. I use a GoogleDrive and Mega for cloud storage (and redundancy), but I also have an external HD and backup USBs. I don't trust DTRPG to maintain an accurate account of my downloads. Not that I've had any issues, but considering how they cave to the woke mob and remove products, I don't want to be stuck in a situation where something I bought but never downloaded is just suddenly gone.

BoxCrayonTales

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Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
« Reply #108 on: September 20, 2022, 07:16:25 PM »
Back in 2008 they took down their pdfs of old books (only some of which have been restored since), and they intimidated a lot of d20 publishers into ceasing sales/preservation of their books. It’s incredibly frustrating for me because I’m reliant on Drivethrurpg to store and organize my pdfs because 1) it the most reliant option since other websites are probe to suddenly dying and 2) I literally don’t have room in my house to keep and organize physical copies.

I’m so frustrated with all this bullshit that I’m pretty much swearing off anything that isn’t released under creative commons or that I made myself. I’ve gonna write my own settings and stories because I seriously cannot rely on corpos or fandoms to do it for me.

Couldn't you keep the PDFs organized on disk, rather than relying on access via Drivethrurpg? That's a lot easier than physical copies, and disk space is cheap these days. I rarely rely on any cloud storage. I keep all my PDFs on my drive and I have a backup disk just in case.

^^This

Except I use multiple sources. I use a GoogleDrive and Mega for cloud storage (and redundancy), but I also have an external HD and backup USBs. I don't trust DTRPG to maintain an accurate account of my downloads. Not that I've had any issues, but considering how they cave to the woke mob and remove products, I don't want to be stuck in a situation where something I bought but never downloaded is just suddenly gone.
I tried storing my pdfs on storage drives over the years as I went through computers and I’ve pretty much lost track of all the files over the years. I’ve bought around a thousand books for research, most of which I still haven’t read. Drivethrurpg just makes things so much easier for me… at least until publishers go crazy and take away your books. I noticed that some of my older purchases from before the RPGNow merger don’t have working links anymore, like Alliance & Horde Compendium or Externals. Sigh.

I’ve absolutely had it with these stupid corpos. They can fuck off and die in a fire. I’m not gonna buy their products anymore.

I’m gonna make my own stories and settings from now on. And I guess patronize indie titles?

I’m so exasperated with all this bullshit.

DocJones

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Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
« Reply #109 on: September 20, 2022, 08:14:27 PM »
It’s incredibly frustrating for me because I’m reliant on Drivethrurpg to store and organize my pdfs because 1) it the most reliant option since other websites are probe to suddenly dying and 2) I literally don’t have room in my house to keep and organize physical copies.

The DriveThruRPG app stores all the pdfs you purchased locally.  You can back up the location (the library folder) if you want.  Also it allows you to keep older versions of books that are updated.


BoxCrayonTales

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Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
« Reply #110 on: September 20, 2022, 09:02:38 PM »
Honestly, my beef is more with the unfortunate fact that the more obscure a ttrpg is, the more difficult it is to find people who are interested in it. Ease of access is a key factor in this: if it’s not easy to acquire copies, then its exposure is severely limited. Another is age. As much as I hate to admit it, the content of books still ages. This is most readily obvious in contemporary and scifi settings, as timelines and technologies in real life march on. My copy of Star*Drive lists floppy drives as a game changing technology.

I would love if WotC could extend GM’s guild to support their other IPs. Even if WotC is unwilling to do anything with the IPs, I’m sure that fans would love to make their own books.

Effete

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Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
« Reply #111 on: September 20, 2022, 10:20:56 PM »
I would love if WotC could extend GM’s guild to support their other IPs. Even if WotC is unwilling to do anything with the IPs, I’m sure that fans would love to make their own books.

I feel the same way about the Savage Worlds Adventure's Guild (SWAG), which is pretty much an extension of their free Fan License. SWAG products must deal exclusively with DTRPG, which I'm increasingly distancing myself from. I have no problem giving PEG their cut as a "licensing fee," but I don't want to give a percentage to DTRPG for hosting the content, especially since there is literally no alternative platform.

Combined with some of their questionable business practices lately, as well as some shoddy content, I'm moving away from Savage Worlds too. Their Fantasy Companion (still in beta testing) is trying REALLY hard to emulate the "feel" of 5e mechanics, and it's bogging down the otherwise smooth resolution of the core system. I took a gamble and vented my frustration on their forums and was surprised at the support I got. Don't think it'll change PEG's mind (nor should it, TBH), but it seems people agree it not the direction SW should be going.

BoxCrayonTales

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Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
« Reply #112 on: September 21, 2022, 10:09:28 AM »
I would love if WotC could extend GM’s guild to support their other IPs. Even if WotC is unwilling to do anything with the IPs, I’m sure that fans would love to make their own books.

I feel the same way about the Savage Worlds Adventure's Guild (SWAG), which is pretty much an extension of their free Fan License. SWAG products must deal exclusively with DTRPG, which I'm increasingly distancing myself from. I have no problem giving PEG their cut as a "licensing fee," but I don't want to give a percentage to DTRPG for hosting the content, especially since there is literally no alternative platform.

Combined with some of their questionable business practices lately, as well as some shoddy content, I'm moving away from Savage Worlds too. Their Fantasy Companion (still in beta testing) is trying REALLY hard to emulate the "feel" of 5e mechanics, and it's bogging down the otherwise smooth resolution of the core system. I took a gamble and vented my frustration on their forums and was surprised at the support I got. Don't think it'll change PEG's mind (nor should it, TBH), but it seems people agree it not the direction SW should be going.
I hear you. I've become increasingly disillusioned with ttrpgs as a whole because of the abandonware problem inadvertently forcing otherwise paying customers to sail the high seas, the takeover by leftwing proto-fascism, the general insularity of the market making it impossible for new creators to break in, so many fertile IPs being left to rot due to owner apathy and broken copyright law even if you can still buy ebooks (and whether they will continue to be hosted is playing Russian roulette now), venerable IPs being stuck in nostalgia ruts that prevent them from going anywhere interesting, venerable IPs being ran roughshod by new owners to constantly attract new players while leaving old players in the dust, that stupid supplement treadmill... I know some of these are issues with all IP industries, but the niche appeal of ttrpgs means they can't break out of it.

Want to make your own IP due to creative disagreements or the feeling that you can do something new, original, and fresh compared to the dinosaurs dominating the market? Well, you're unlikely to get a foothold unless a big company does something really stupid to alienate their customers enough to convince them to try other games, and those same customers will abandon your game as soon as the IP they previously liked makes a token effort to apologize.

Unless creators release their work under a creative commons license that keeps it in circulation (such as being hosted on the Internet Archive without risk of being DMCA'd) and promotes fan creativity (as opposed to worshiping teh "lore" as a religious text that cannot be deviated from), then I don't feel like investing in other people's work is worth it anymore. I feel like I'm better off writing prose fiction to sell on Kindle Unlimited or video games because those have a much bigger and healthier market.

Armchair Gamer

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Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
« Reply #113 on: September 21, 2022, 01:49:43 PM »
Combined with some of their questionable business practices lately, as well as some shoddy content, I'm moving away from Savage Worlds too. Their Fantasy Companion (still in beta testing) is trying REALLY hard to emulate the "feel" of 5e mechanics, and it's bogging down the otherwise smooth resolution of the core system. I took a gamble and vented my frustration on their forums and was surprised at the support I got. Don't think it'll change PEG's mind (nor should it, TBH), but it seems people agree it not the direction SW should be going.

  Got a link to the discussion? You've piqued my curiosity.

Effete

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Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
« Reply #114 on: September 21, 2022, 02:27:17 PM »
Combined with some of their questionable business practices lately, as well as some shoddy content, I'm moving away from Savage Worlds too. Their Fantasy Companion (still in beta testing) is trying REALLY hard to emulate the "feel" of 5e mechanics, and it's bogging down the otherwise smooth resolution of the core system. I took a gamble and vented my frustration on their forums and was surprised at the support I got. Don't think it'll change PEG's mind (nor should it, TBH), but it seems people agree it not the direction SW should be going.

  Got a link to the discussion? You've piqued my curiosity.

Yep, HERE.

Armchair Gamer

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Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
« Reply #115 on: September 21, 2022, 02:41:08 PM »

Jaeger

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Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
« Reply #116 on: September 21, 2022, 05:00:44 PM »
...
Want to make your own IP due to creative disagreements or the feeling that you can do something new, original, and fresh compared to the dinosaurs dominating the market? Well, you're unlikely to get a foothold unless a big company does something really stupid to alienate their customers enough to convince them to try other games, and those same customers will abandon your game as soon as the IP they previously liked makes a token effort to apologize.
...




RPG fans are fanatically loyal to the first movers in any given RPG genre.

This is why Palladium games is still around in spite of known system issues with no edition to correct them on the near horizon.

It's why PF got dropped like a hot potato when 5e came out. It's why Vampire/WoD continues to be a thing in spite of epic mismanagement.

The economics of the domestic print industry changed in the 90's, making it epically harder for new start up RPG companies to come along and do what White Wolf did. That is why today all the top RPG sellers are dominated by companies that already have an industry foothold.
"The envious are not satisfied with equality; they secretly yearn for superiority and revenge."

Omega

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Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
« Reply #117 on: September 24, 2022, 05:56:27 PM »
Jesus Wept you people need to take out a grant and buy multiple clues.

Cyberpunk 2020 came out in 1988, Shadowrun in 1989. Considering development times and SR's bumpy development. It might well have been in the works before CP2020 for all we know.. More likely SR was in development before CP2020 came out. but finished after CP2020. They bear little in common past what they share in common with like 50% of all cyberpunk products. On top of that. CP2020 uses d10s while SR uses only d6s.

So your evidence is... conjecture?

No. My point is experience with development times.

Try again please.

Chris24601

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Re: Wizards of the Coast vs. TSR: IP Theft, Racism?
« Reply #118 on: September 25, 2022, 11:51:25 AM »
Jesus Wept you people need to take out a grant and buy multiple clues.

Cyberpunk 2020 came out in 1988, Shadowrun in 1989. Considering development times and SR's bumpy development. It might well have been in the works before CP2020 for all we know.. More likely SR was in development before CP2020 came out. but finished after CP2020. They bear little in common past what they share in common with like 50% of all cyberpunk products. On top of that. CP2020 uses d10s while SR uses only d6s.

So your evidence is... conjecture?

No. My point is experience with development times.

Try again please.
To be fair, those who are only familiar with the “use OGL mechanics + creative commons art packs + PDF/POD distribution” model of RPG creation might think less than a year is enough time to churn out an entire RPG game.

Just as a historical note for the unaware; the digital printing press didn’t even exist until 1989. The PDF was invented in 1993. Windows 3.0 (the first to see wide adoption) came out in 1993. Non-usenet Internet access via dial-up was also c. 1993.

Designing an RPG in the late 80’s meant DOS-based word processing, correspondence with offsite collaborators via phone and snail mail, and old school typesetting for offset printing runs. Oh, and having to actually design your own original mechanics for everything because the OGL wasn’t even a twinkle in Ryan Dancy’s eyes yet.

Not only were Cyberpunk and Shadowrun almost certainly being developed concurrently, the lack of internet communications means that the two developers were probably entirely unaware of what the other was in the process of developing.