I find WotC's current approach fascinating in the light of some infamous quotes from the 4E promo book Wizards Presents: Races and Classes:

Quote
"D&D is a game about slaying horrible monsters, not a game about traipsing off through fairy rings and interacting with the little people."

Quote from: Wrath of God on January 06, 2022, 06:49:06 PM
I think most SJWs wants to punch Republicans in their games tbh

They should make that game. I wouldn't buy it but a lot of lefties would even if it were totally unplayable.

Why would they do it - if WOTC is selling them that, with extra cool fursuits?

Quote from: Wrath of God on January 06, 2022, 08:04:40 PM
Why would they do it - if WOTC is selling them that, with extra cool fursuits?

I Should have been clearer, I don't mean Wizards so much as SJW in general.

They can't even do that right, to be honest.

A while back, someone pointed out a bit of trash to me called 'Extreme Meatpunks Forever', which started out as a shitty video game and then of course became a shitty PbtA tabletop game. But what was notable was that the 'villains' the PCs fight (the 'fash') were... I would call them cardboard cut outs but that would be insulting to cardboard.

SJW games, at the deep end, need villains that are simultaneously completely irredeemable yet also (somehow) completely unthreatening. It's bizarre.

I get it - I mean why SJWs would do it, when they already have it - called D&D.

Someone should make an ironic rpg where the narrative of the setting is based in uncomfortable seeming jargon and EXTREMELY unreliable to the point where a reader cannot honestly conclude that anything in the game apart from raw mechanics is on the level or based in any verifiable reality. Everything is a distortion or willful misunderstanding and the conglomeration of this shows MANY troubling inconsistencies.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on January 06, 2022, 08:27:11 PM
SJW games, at the deep end, need villains that are simultaneously completely irredeemable yet also (somehow) completely unthreatening. It's bizarre.

It's grotesquely fascinating and truly cringe worthy at the same time...

Quote from: Abraxus on January 06, 2022, 09:51:23 AM
Fixable is the self-righteous Normie SJW that makes my day so amusing

Women only like dressing like stereotypical prudes from 1800s clothing catalogs.

Some do and some like their characters to look sexy. It is up to the individual player and not Normie Prude SJWs, myself or anyone else to tell players how their characters should look like.

D&D art is so mature now. Gets shown how much 5E art is so " mature " nowhere to be seen. I guess he would have no problems showing those somewhat sex clips to his kids since the art has evolved.

As for allowing kids in the hobby I am all for it.  Just don't expect to go to existing tables and tell them to change their styles of gaming at the table as they usually won't. With them telling him to look elsewhere. Or they find a tailor made game for a younger audience.

Well, I prefer my D&D game books to feature art that is evocative of the setting. I mostly prefer old school anyway and there isn't a lot of forgiveness for running around in dungeons wearing nothing but a loincloth or metal nipple tassels in most old school games. AC 8 or 9 isn't doing anyone any favors if you can get plate and shield, instead.

There is an excluded middle that you are missing between wanting realistic portrayals of female adventurers in D&D art and prudish 1800s clothings.

But yeah, in my personal opinion, I prefer D&D books that have art that is more about fantasy adventure and less about soft-core porn.

I really dig the art showcased here: https://www.pinterest.com/shortstuff13/realistic-female-armor/

If you want chainmail bikini there is a place for it in certain style games... I can see superhero games or games like Exalted having it. But it doesn't belong in D&D, it is more grounded and there's more verisimilitude needed. In D&D you want the best armor you can get whether your character is male or female.

Quote from: Gog to Magog on January 06, 2022, 01:05:20 AM

Quote from: fixable on January 05, 2022, 03:28:32 AM

Quote from: Shasarak on January 05, 2022, 03:24:42 AM

Quote from: fixable on January 05, 2022, 03:13:47 AM
I mostly play with women and they like playing attractive characters that are dressed less like sex objects and more like actual female adventurers.

That does not sound very realistic.

Yeah sure. It doesn't sound realistic for female gamers to visualize themselves as female adventurers. All women want to be chainmail bikini clad vixens. Right whatever you say. What do you know about the people I game with?

My wife that has been playing since she was a teen has explicitly only ever wanted to play 'sexy' characters even going as far as to prefer to play non-armor clad ones so the art she can find for them can be sexier.

She prefers art that is more overtly stylized, sexualized, idealized and unrealistic. She likes bare chested Conan and barely-clad girl. She likes cleavage & skirt-armor.

She's been playing this game longer than the tourists infesting the space now demanding it be changed to their mercurial, impossible-to-please tastes so that they can then immediately move on to whatever pop culture tells them is popular...

...I value her opinion more.

Ok fair enough. But that's a personal taste that is not necessarily shared by others.

Its cool that your wife prefers that style, but why would she or you be offended if the art style changes for those who don't prefer it? You value her opinion more and of course that should be without question. But there are other people who have different opinions.

I value my friends' opinions over yours; and none of my friends, male or female, are cool with oversexualiztion of women in the game. Why is your opinion more important than mine or my own friends?

Edit: again it is cool you and yours dig chain mail bikini's but why are there aspersions cast against those who don't?

Quote from: Wrath of God on January 06, 2022, 06:49:06 PM
I think most SJWs wants to punch Republicans in their games tbh

Well that's political. What are you even talking about?

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 05, 2021, 01:29:13 AM

Quote from: fixable on December 03, 2021, 03:32:20 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 25, 2021, 02:53:20 PM

Quote from: Tubesock Army on November 24, 2021, 09:28:38 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on October 05, 2021, 02:12:03 PM

Quote from: horsesoldier on October 04, 2021, 08:37:48 AM
This is the first edition of DnD to be helmed by total mediocrities. Every other edition has something the designs can point to as their masterpiece. What does Perkins, Crawford et al have?

Nothing.

Aside from the most popular edition of the world's most popular RPG lmao

They were not the creators of that RPG, though. They "have" the Good Name of that edition on their side, which is an advantage to be sure. But 4e's designers had the Good Name of 3e to bank on, and then completely tanked when they put out a Shit Edition anyways.

And just like with 4e, look for D&D CRT Edition to SHIT ALL OVER 5e, in this case talking about how bigoted and transphobic and White-male-oriented and Colonialist it was and how anyone who ever like it (or maybe even played it) was a Literal Nazi.

Its funny that you are on this campaign against an edition you actually helped build (you're a consultant on 5e right?) But I guess you eat your own and you turncoat when needed. As you are a part of the outrage brigade. Like OMG they use 'they/them' pronouns... its the END OF THE WORLD... omg.

That's one hell of a take. I'm defending the current edition, against people who want to change it not to make it more gameable, but to suit an ideological agenda. Who is 'eating their own' here?

Ok I get it. I went back and re-watched your video. I apologize for being so super aggressive. But I obviously have some pretty strong opinions. As an aside affogato's are awesome. And I respect your wrangling of your cats while taping ( I have two of my own and they always show up on my online games).

But D&D isn't necessarily the same game it was in the origins of the hobby compared to now. D&D is 40+ years old. It is that old because it has always catered to the times. It was born out of the wargaming scene, then adapted to compete with World of Darkness, then changed again to represent video gamers (like Diablo or World of Warcraft). 5e has come and it seems to have adapted to Twitch streaming via Critical Role.

But I feel like you are tilting at windmills.

D&D 5e has to be considered (for better or worse) to be a default D&D. I would claim that the D&D now is a product of its time in the same way it has been in the past.
The thing is that the people you call Social Justice Warriors are really people who have different belief systems than you and you just choose to consider any action that helps them to be a defacto 'act of war'. Which is completely bonkers to me.

You say you are defending the game to prevent it from becoming ideologized but from whom's point of view? Yours? Like your point of view is the only correct point of view? Its not. But fair enough... you can say whatever you want on your YouTube and your followers can believe you if they want to.

You also get all bent out of shape about alignment, but Basic Fantasy RPG (one of the first OSR D&D clones) had no alignment. Basic Fantasy is one of my favorite OSR clones created by an icon in the OSR world and I don't miss alignment. So who cares about alignment?

As far as forcing magic items onto us (like the wheel chair)... how old is the "Deck of Many Things"? How many DM's have banned that item because it would ruin their campaign. DM's have always had the right to allow magic items or disallow them. If a DM allows magic wheelchairs, then just don't play with that DM.

Who cares about what WoTC has to say? Unless you are worried about new players coming in being informed by that. Well, what can you do? Just create a compelling competing product and see if you can attract players away from WoTC? If people new to the hobby aren't into hard core conservative realistic medieval role playing they just aren't.

You create a role-playing game that would probably only appeal to hard core medieval scholars and complain that modern players are too woke to play it? That's on you.

QuoteIts cool that your wife prefers that style, but why would she or you be offended if the art style changes for those who don't prefer it? You value her opinion more and of course that should be without question. But there are other people who have different opinions.

Because generally speaking it's not enemies of realistic armour that try to ban, remove, cancel people for using bikini armours in their games, but enemies of bikini armours that make such campaign in name of fighting sexism, and what not.

QuoteWell that's political. What are you even talking about?

About preference of enemies in SJW gaming culture.

Quote from: fixable on January 07, 2022, 03:23:34 AM

Quote from: Gog to Magog on January 06, 2022, 01:05:20 AM

Quote from: fixable on January 05, 2022, 03:28:32 AM

Quote from: Shasarak on January 05, 2022, 03:24:42 AM

Quote from: fixable on January 05, 2022, 03:13:47 AM
I mostly play with women and they like playing attractive characters that are dressed less like sex objects and more like actual female adventurers.

That does not sound very realistic.

Yeah sure. It doesn't sound realistic for female gamers to visualize themselves as female adventurers. All women want to be chainmail bikini clad vixens. Right whatever you say. What do you know about the people I game with?

My wife that has been playing since she was a teen has explicitly only ever wanted to play 'sexy' characters even going as far as to prefer to play non-armor clad ones so the art she can find for them can be sexier.

She prefers art that is more overtly stylized, sexualized, idealized and unrealistic. She likes bare chested Conan and barely-clad girl. She likes cleavage & skirt-armor.

She's been playing this game longer than the tourists infesting the space now demanding it be changed to their mercurial, impossible-to-please tastes so that they can then immediately move on to whatever pop culture tells them is popular...

...I value her opinion more.

Ok fair enough. But that's a personal taste that is not necessarily shared by others.

Its cool that your wife prefers that style, but why would she or you be offended if the art style changes for those who don't prefer it? You value her opinion more and of course that should be without question. But there are other people who have different opinions.

I value my friends' opinions over yours; and none of my friends, male or female, are cool with oversexualiztion of women in the game. Why is your opinion more important than mine or my own friends?

Edit: again it is cool you and yours dig chain mail bikini's but why are there aspersions cast against those who don't?

Do you not even see the moralizing attached to your terms?

"oversexualization"

How absolutely puritanical.

Your entire method of approaching the situation is to cast a moral judgment on HER tastes. You came into a hobby she was into BEFORE you were with styles that drew HER to it and then say "I don't like this and I deem it to be MORALLY BAD and it should be changed"

I do not care if YOU create or take part in things to your taste but I DO dislike when people come into a hobby and start saying things are badwrong and must be changed to fit THEIR preferences. Those people will NOT ask for coexistence of, for example, my wife's preferences and yours...no...they will demand ONLY their preference be allowed and her preferences be damned. It is not even allowed for the two things to co-exist and fight it out in the realm of capitalist competition...why? Because I think we both know YOURS would lose because sex sells.

People hate moral busybodies because they're condescending bores that make demands of others to lessen their fun.

It's gross and tiresome and eventually really REALLY pisses people off.

If this was decades earlier you and your friends would be demanding the devils and demons be removed.

That is the kind of person you are at heart.

Create competing ideas and see if they win or lose...stop trying to morally impugn others ideas so that you don't have to do that (because, again, I think we both know your ideas would lose)

EDIT:

Also your nonsense about "softcore porn" is an absolute strawman...

We have puritans railing against CLEAVAGE and skirts and its absolutely absurd. This isn't about damned nipple tassels so put the strawman back in the field, dude

Quote from: fixable on January 07, 2022, 03:06:48 AM

Quote from: Abraxus on January 06, 2022, 09:51:23 AM
Fixable is the self-righteous Normie SJW that makes my day so amusing

Women only like dressing like stereotypical prudes from 1800s clothing catalogs.

Some do and some like their characters to look sexy. It is up to the individual player and not Normie Prude SJWs, myself or anyone else to tell players how their characters should look like.

D&D art is so mature now. Gets shown how much 5E art is so " mature " nowhere to be seen. I guess he would have no problems showing those somewhat sex clips to his kids since the art has evolved.

As for allowing kids in the hobby I am all for it.  Just don't expect to go to existing tables and tell them to change their styles of gaming at the table as they usually won't. With them telling him to look elsewhere. Or they find a tailor made game for a younger audience.

Well, I prefer my D&D game books to feature art that is evocative of the setting. I mostly prefer old school anyway and there isn't a lot of forgiveness for running around in dungeons wearing nothing but a loincloth or metal nipple tassels in most old school games. AC 8 or 9 isn't doing anyone any favors if you can get plate and shield, instead.

There is an excluded middle that you are missing between wanting realistic portrayals of female adventurers in D&D art and prudish 1800s clothings.

But yeah, in my personal opinion, I prefer D&D books that have art that is more about fantasy adventure and less about soft-core porn.

I really dig the art showcased here: https://www.pinterest.com/shortstuff13/realistic-female-armor/

If you want chainmail bikini there is a place for it in certain style games... I can see superhero games or games like Exalted having it. But it doesn't belong in D&D, it is more grounded and there's more verisimilitude needed. In D&D you want the best armor you can get whether your character is male or female.

"Realistic potrayals" is bullshit and you will IMMEDIATELY abandon that stance as SOON as it becomes inconvenient to your sensibilities.

I'd bet a hundred dollars on it.