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Author Topic: Wizards Announces New "Evolved" D&D Revision  (Read 48754 times)

Steven Mitchell

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Re: Wizards Announces New "Evolved" D&D Revision
« Reply #75 on: October 08, 2021, 01:37:57 PM »
Take care I'm not saying USA, the UK or any other country SHOULD drop the imperial and switch because I'm not an authoritarian. I'm just saying it's easier to work with.

It's easier to work with, in certain contexts.  By the same token, in certain contexts hexadecimal or even binary are easier.  Sometimes "natural" units are easier. 

There are all kinds of tricks in carpentry which are basically Euclidean geometry, with occasional measurements (in whatever form you want) to make cuts.  It happens that fractions of an inch work well in some of that because the typical "kerf"  (usually the width of the cut) of a carpentry saw blade is very close to 1/16th of an inch.  You could could work around in metric, but you'd have to drop some shortcuts to do it.  That's just under 1.59 mm, which means that for rough cuts using 1.5 would be fine, but for precision you need it closer than that.  Of course, they could make metric blades that had a kerf closer to 1.5, and the tricks come back.  the blade wouldn't hold up as well at that thickness, and might be some safety issues with the teeth, but could work around with a better grade of steel. 

For most everyday things, the best measurement is the one that you are used to using.  Cooking?  It's a really rare baking recipe that is down to that precision, and a lot of things you can do "by handfuls" or a "cup" in the sense of a "mug of about the right size, as long as use the same one", because proportion matters more than exact amounts. 

So metric is better for most things for people that are used to using it and worse for most people that aren't--end of story.  Anyone working in a field where it matters should learn the measurements in that field--also end of story.  A moderately bright person ought to be able to learn more than one set of units, and anyone less bright than that shouldn't be working in a field that requires that level of precision.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2021, 01:39:37 PM by Steven Mitchell »

GeekyBugle

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Re: Wizards Announces New "Evolved" D&D Revision
« Reply #76 on: October 08, 2021, 01:51:24 PM »
Take care I'm not saying USA, the UK or any other country SHOULD drop the imperial and switch because I'm not an authoritarian. I'm just saying it's easier to work with.

It's easier to work with, in certain contexts.  By the same token, in certain contexts hexadecimal or even binary are easier.  Sometimes "natural" units are easier. 

There are all kinds of tricks in carpentry which are basically Euclidean geometry, with occasional measurements (in whatever form you want) to make cuts.  It happens that fractions of an inch work well in some of that because the typical "kerf"  (usually the width of the cut) of a carpentry saw blade is very close to 1/16th of an inch.  You could could work around in metric, but you'd have to drop some shortcuts to do it.  That's just under 1.59 mm, which means that for rough cuts using 1.5 would be fine, but for precision you need it closer than that.  Of course, they could make metric blades that had a kerf closer to 1.5, and the tricks come back.  the blade wouldn't hold up as well at that thickness, and might be some safety issues with the teeth, but could work around with a better grade of steel. 

For most everyday things, the best measurement is the one that you are used to using.  Cooking?  It's a really rare baking recipe that is down to that precision, and a lot of things you can do "by handfuls" or a "cup" in the sense of a "mug of about the right size, as long as use the same one", because proportion matters more than exact amounts. 

So metric is better for most things for people that are used to using it and worse for most people that aren't--end of story.  Anyone working in a field where it matters should learn the measurements in that field--also end of story.  A moderately bright person ought to be able to learn more than one set of units, and anyone less bright than that shouldn't be working in a field that requires that level of precision.

Why is the "kerf" that size? Could it be because most companies are USA companies?

I use cups and spoons for cooking. Mine happen to be metric cups, so a cup = 0.250 liter

You can do the same for mixing concrete, one bucket of this for that many buckets of that plus that many buckets of that other thing, etc. If the buckets are in gallons or liters is irrelevant.
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Steven Mitchell

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Re: Wizards Announces New "Evolved" D&D Revision
« Reply #77 on: October 08, 2021, 02:10:42 PM »
Why is the "kerf" that size? Could it be because most companies are USA companies?

I'm sure that they are that size partially because the people using them wanted them that size for the reasons I stated.  However, my point is that given the specs on the materials, there are limits to how thin you can make the blades--and even within those limits, the thinner you make them the lower tolerances you get.  Since the primary driving factor is using the Euclidean geometry for rapid shortcuts, the measurement system used should be one (in some hypothetical ideal world) that maximizes the safety and production costs of those materials. 

In other words, there is not a huge reason to use metric or imperial here (because let's face it, there are ways to work around the margins) but changing from one to the other is not as simple as the user learning a new set of measurements.  Heck, even mechanics have an easier switch, since all they need is a set of metric specific tools (wrenches and the like).  Absent some really compelling reason to switch, there should be no switch.  Other countries deciding it would be easier for them if you switched is not a compelling reason in this case.

I use cups and spoons for cooking. Mine happen to be metric cups, so a cup = 0.250 liter

You can do the same for mixing concrete, one bucket of this for that many buckets of that plus that many buckets of that other thing, etc. If the buckets are in gallons or liters is irrelevant.

Yes, which I believe I stated.  There is no inherent advantage to either system.  So the one you use most often is the best one to use.  There is no good reason why I should switch to yours or you should switch to mine.

GeekEclectic

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Re: Wizards Announces New "Evolved" D&D Revision
« Reply #78 on: October 08, 2021, 05:50:04 PM »
"kerf"  (usually the width of the cut) of a carpentry saw blade is very close to 1/16th of an inch.  You could could work around in metric, but you'd have to drop some shortcuts to do it.  That's just under 1.59 mm, which means that for rough cuts using 1.5 would be fine, but for precision you need it closer than that.

Then why not just machine them to 1.59 mm? I assume if that's really the sweet spot to make the geometric tricks work, it would be well known abroad and foreign blade manufacturs would just . . . make them the right size regardless of which system of measurement they were using. Machining can probably go even more precise than that, since you did say "slightly less." I actually looked it up. It seems machines can have a tolerance level(margin of error, basically) between 0.1 mm to 0.002 mm. So a low-end machine wouldn't be accurate enough, but just a mid-range machine could give you a spread of 1.58 to 1.6, both .8 closer to the sweet spot than 1.5.

Quote
So metric is better for most things for people that are used to using it and worse for most people that aren't--end of story.  Anyone working in a field where it matters should learn the measurements in that field--also end of story.  A moderately bright person ought to be able to learn more than one set of units, and anyone less bright than that shouldn't be working in a field that requires that level of precision.

Exactly. But I'm still not sure why foreign manufacturers can't just make the right-width sawblade. Metric really makes no sense as a hindrance here.
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Steven Mitchell

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Re: Wizards Announces New "Evolved" D&D Revision
« Reply #79 on: October 08, 2021, 06:23:49 PM »

Then why not just machine them to 1.59 mm? I assume if that's really the sweet spot to make the geometric tricks work, it would be well known abroad and foreign blade manufacturs would just . . . make them the right size regardless of which system of measurement they were using. Machining can probably go even more precise than that, since you did say "slightly less." I actually looked it up. It seems machines can have a tolerance level(margin of error, basically) between 0.1 mm to 0.002 mm. So a low-end machine wouldn't be accurate enough, but just a mid-range machine could give you a spread of 1.58 to 1.6, both .8 closer to the sweet spot than 1.5.


What you quoted was me, not Geeky. 

The kerf should be as close as you can get it to the smallest measurement that you are likely to use.  Or more specifically, no more than double the smallest.  Most cuts in carpentry are going to be as close to a 1/16 of an inch as you can get, so the kerf should match.  1.59 mm is not going to be a useful, quick measurement when translating linear distance of the measurement of the cut.  You could do it with 1.5 mm with a kerf of that width.  (In the same way, occasionally you'll need 1/32 in carpentry, and eyeballing the middle of the blade is usually OK--though harder for someone like me with bad depth perception.  But then, I can't make furniture precise enough for that to matter anyway.) 

Setting up for mass production, this wouldn't matter so much.  You'd pull out a micrometer and set it to exactly what you needed, with stop, complete with an exact inclusion of the exact kerf you have on the saw.  My dad does that occasionally for key measurements in really tight pieces. That's obviously a lot slower than being able to consistently eyeball the blade.  You can't do that every cut as a carpenter if you want to eat, though.

As I said before, this is all at the margins, though.  Give me nothing but metric to use and an 1/16th kerf, I could make the piece.  It would just take longer, with more mistakes, and probably wouldn't be quite as fine as I'd make otherwise.  Wood's got a certain amount of give and take anyway.  What my dad would make under the same conditions would be better than what I'd make without the handicap, but not as good as what he'd make without it. 

Give him a 1.5 mm kerf and nothing but metric, he'd adapt.  He'd get back to the same quality as he has now, eventually.  The point is that nothing would be gained except others would have the satisfaction of knowing they'd forced metric on someone.  This isn't like chemistry, where there is a solid, positive, compelling reason for the switch.

Edited:  Of course you can make a 1.59 mm blade.  We've already got that.  You can also make a 1.5 mm blade, which would be a heck of a lot more convenient for someone using metric otherwise.  The difficulty is that blades are surprisingly fine in how they work, such that changing the width that much changes their manufacturing for a given finesse of cut.  Some of the diamond tip blades are already expensive.  Granted, nothing compared to the cost of the saw, but the saw lasts a lot longer,   Again, could be made to work, but there isn't any appreciable gain for switching, and carpenters don't make a fortune (i.e. already have fairly tight economic margins).  Now, a 2 mm kerf might be pretty amazing in some cases.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2021, 06:29:29 PM by Steven Mitchell »

Shasarak

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Re: Wizards Announces New "Evolved" D&D Revision
« Reply #80 on: October 09, 2021, 04:14:47 AM »
This reminds me of the old Attack Table players.  Sure they could use that new fangled THAC0 but really what does it add that they can’t just read off their attack tables?
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Chris24601

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Re: Wizards Announces New "Evolved" D&D Revision
« Reply #81 on: October 09, 2021, 09:20:42 AM »
This reminds me of the old Attack Table players.  Sure they could use that new fangled THAC0 but really what does it add that they can’t just read off their attack tables?
Except the math was essentially the same (or nearly so), just not laid out on a table for easy reference. It’s the difference between doing the math in your head and having a slide rule on hand to provide the results based on inputs.

The math on 1/16” vs. 1.59mm is different in that one is easy to do in your head, while one would need more time and possibly a pen and paper to achieve the same degree of accuracy and changing the tool to make the math into something easy enough to do as you go without a calculator is not as easy as it sounds because metallurgy doesn’t care about what system of measurement you’re using… it has X properties at one thickness and Y at another.

A better association would be that the 1/16” is the 2e THAC0 number and the 1.59mm is the 1e attack matrix but you’re also using the weapon vs. armor to-hit adjustments with it (i.e. the same, but with extra math on top to get the right result).

hedgehobbit

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Re: Wizards Announces New "Evolved" D&D Revision
« Reply #82 on: October 09, 2021, 11:43:44 AM »
It's easier to work with, in certain contexts.  By the same token, in certain contexts hexadecimal or even binary are easier.  Sometimes "natural" units are easier.

This is why I find all this discussion between metric and imperial wrt the moon landing so amusing. I spent a good decade writing industrial control software and we didn't use either measuring system. Time was tracked by clock cycles. Distances were measure as the number of clock cycles between two inputs. Even analog measuring devices, such as scales, were converted to digital by the sensor's manufacturer in some arbitrary way so those numbers didn't have units either. The only time you'd convert those internal units to meters or feet is for display or for sending it to another computer system. And it's just as easy to fail by mixing mm and cm as it is to fail by mixing meters and feet.

IOW, in a digital age, there is no advantage or disadvantage to using metric over imperial. Either of them requires a conversion to display and that conversion takes exactly as much computer power regardless of the units being used.

Shasarak

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Re: Wizards Announces New "Evolved" D&D Revision
« Reply #83 on: October 09, 2021, 04:12:53 PM »
This reminds me of the old Attack Table players.  Sure they could use that new fangled THAC0 but really what does it add that they can’t just read off their attack tables?
Except the math was essentially the same (or nearly so), just not laid out on a table for easy reference. It’s the difference between doing the math in your head and having a slide rule on hand to provide the results based on inputs.

The math on 1/16” vs. 1.59mm is different in that one is easy to do in your head, while one would need more time and possibly a pen and paper to achieve the same degree of accuracy and changing the tool to make the math into something easy enough to do as you go without a calculator is not as easy as it sounds because metallurgy doesn’t care about what system of measurement you’re using… it has X properties at one thickness and Y at another.

A better association would be that the 1/16” is the 2e THAC0 number and the 1.59mm is the 1e attack matrix but you’re also using the weapon vs. armor to-hit adjustments with it (i.e. the same, but with extra math on top to get the right result).

Exactly, an attack table is much easier to use then doing maths in your head.  I wouldn’t even know where to start calculating a 16th of an inch
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Omega

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Re: Wizards Announces New "Evolved" D&D Revision
« Reply #84 on: October 09, 2021, 04:58:29 PM »
"Get the **** out so everyone can play!" - ain't that just perfect the perfect motto for them, too. *chases everyone off* "Which -ism can we blame for our lack of players this time?" and *repeat*
 
  WotC has always had 'fire the current fans' as a component of their approach to new D&D editions--they did it with 3E, with 4E, and even with 5E, although in the odd-numbered cases, it's somewhat disguised by the 'chasing the 1E nostalgia' element they also built into the marketing.

  Given 5E's success, though, I expect this time will look a bit different--more a 'double down on all the new fans and forget the old ones.'

3e did not try to get rid of its older players. In fact they put some effort into retaining them and the core books cleaved very close text-wise to their 2e counterparts. Aside from the big rules changes its still more and less D&D.

4e is where they had that whole advertisement campaign designed to insult the older players. And the rules and text share little to nothing with prior.

5e tried to course correct and overall worked by mostly jettsioning the 4e nuts and courting back the older gamers and overall succeeding despite the many flaws in the system. Its not till the SJWs hit full steam that WOTC started to antagonize older players again. But overall not via 5e but by slapping a WACIST!!! tag on all the older product. And have spiraled down from there.

GeekEclectic

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Re: Wizards Announces New "Evolved" D&D Revision
« Reply #85 on: October 10, 2021, 11:39:16 AM »
Of course you can make a 1.59 mm blade.  We've already got that.

Thank you. That's all I wanted to know.

I went ahead and looked up how carpenters abroad do things, and it turns out that for the most part they use the same sizes of equipment and materials as the current US standards, but . . . relabeled in metric! It's a field without a lot of clean numbers, though. Things like 38x89(mm) for a 2x4. In construction, though, they go for rounder numbers, often multiples of 30. I read it's becaues 30cm is a good round number that's close to a foot.

So the answer is that carpenters abroad usually use metric, and their equipment and materials will usually be labeled in metric, and the 1.59mm blade totally exists, which totally makes sense if it's the metric equivalent of the 1/16" sweet spot imperial blade.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2021, 11:44:35 AM by GeekEclectic »
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Steven Mitchell

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Re: Wizards Announces New "Evolved" D&D Revision
« Reply #86 on: October 10, 2021, 09:35:20 PM »
I went ahead and looked up how carpenters abroad do things, and it turns out that for the most part they use the same sizes of equipment and materials as the current US standards, but . . . relabeled in metric! It's a field without a lot of clean numbers, though. Things like 38x89(mm) for a 2x4. In construction, though, they go for rounder numbers, often multiples of 30. I read it's becaues 30cm is a good round number that's close to a foot.

So the answer is that carpenters abroad usually use metric, and their equipment and materials will usually be labeled in metric, and the 1.59mm blade totally exists, which totally makes sense if it's the metric equivalent of the 1/16" sweet spot imperial blade.

Given that the standard 2.4 is actually closer to 1 3/4" by 3 3/4" once dressed, that part doesn't matter all that much. The dressing is more that the judicious rounding on millimeters.  We are back to proportion again.  For most things requiring a 2x4, the main thing is that they are the same width.  Besides, the first big break point on length is about 15 feet.  Past that point, you need something sturdier than the typical 2x8, 2x10, 2x12 setup on floor and ceiling--double width attached, actual beams, extra supports, pillars, etc.  And the wood don't care how you measure it, as long as you stay under that margin or compensate. :D

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Re: Wizards Announces New "Evolved" D&D Revision
« Reply #87 on: November 23, 2021, 07:47:09 PM »
The only D&D i play are the classic or D&D 3rd. i don't anything of D&D after the 3rd. so i am good on that front. as for other games i own d20 starwars revised, gurps and starfinder that i play as well. So right now D&D has lost it flavor for me.

Jam The MF

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Re: Wizards Announces New "Evolved" D&D Revision
« Reply #88 on: November 23, 2021, 09:27:49 PM »
Something as shallow as having really nice looking covers, with a 50th Anniversary logo; will help sell a lot books from the outset.
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Re: Wizards Announces New "Evolved" D&D Revision
« Reply #89 on: November 24, 2021, 05:04:11 AM »
Something as shallow as having really nice looking covers, with a 50th Anniversary logo; will help sell a lot books from the outset.

Quite possible. The second Star Wars Disney movie sold pretty well too, because people were rushing to see it. But as a result of that, there was a massive backlash.
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