Quote from: Jaeger on January 18, 2022, 08:04:32 PM

Quote from: jhkim on January 17, 2022, 04:53:27 PM
I would agree that women have been instrumental in how illustrations work in the past - i.e. it was the culture of both men and women,  not just something imposed on women by men. But I don't think it is purely hardwired. Majority taste doesn't mean that it's right either way, but in this case, the majority seem to no longer prefer those tropes - at least to the degree that they did in the 1970s.

Except that is simply not true at all.

In the case of comics or RPG's it is Just a small subset of "women", who got into positions where they could shame-scold companies from serving their customers and into reducing the amount of what they perceive as "problematic" art.

But when you actually look at what mainstream women still buy...

If I posted some of the European or Asian covers of Elle or Vouge fashion magazines; I would violate the forum policies against nudity.

And these are fashion magazine's made by women, for women; competing with each other for mainstream women's readership.

These aren't contradictory tastes. The exact same people can enjoy seeing women look sexy when they want to be sexy (i.e. when at a club or fashion show), and at the same time, want to see women look powerful and heroic when they are fighting (i.e. when fighting monsters with a sword). It's a consistent and reasonable stance. Also, as far as women's magazines, from what I can see the sales of women's magazines have plummeted over the past decade.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/322544/women-s-lifestyle-magazines--print-sales-revenue-uk/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/womens-magazines-are-dying-will-we-miss-them-when-theyre-gone/2018/12/31/a3bbe3ac-f729-11e8-863c-9e2f864d47e7_story.html

Romance novels are doing well, but the content of romance novels has changed since the 1970s. I've only read about a dozen or so romance novels in my lifetime, so I'm not an expert - but the modern ones have seemed distinct from the older ones. There are still some similar themes - but there are also a lot of differences, like more women with successful careers and other tropes. This hasn't upended the genre, but it has shifted it - just as I'm sure that 1970s romance novels were different from 1920s romance novels.

Quote from: jhkim on January 19, 2022, 12:44:45 AM
These aren't contradictory tastes. The exact same people can enjoy seeing women look sexy when they want to be sexy (i.e. when at a club or fashion show), and at the same time, want to see women look powerful and heroic when they are fighting (i.e. when fighting monsters with a sword). It's a consistent and reasonable stance.

Also, as far as women's magazines, from what I can see the sales of women's magazines have plummeted over the past decade.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/322544/women-s-lifestyle-magazines--print-sales-revenue-uk/

The sale of all magazines have dwindled in the digital age:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/184055/estimated-revenue-of-us-periodical-publishers-since-2005/
https://natwestbusinesshub.com/articles/magazines-turning-the-page-in-the-age-of-digital

In other news: Water is Wet...

My point still stands.

Quote from: jhkim on January 19, 2022, 12:44:45 AM
Romance novels are doing well, but the content of romance novels has changed since the 1970s. I've only read about a dozen or so romance novels in my lifetime, so I'm not an expert - but the modern ones have seemed distinct from the older ones. There are still some similar themes - but there are also a lot of differences, like more women with successful careers and other tropes. This hasn't upended the genre, but it has shifted it - just as I'm sure that 1970s romance novels were different from 1920s romance novels.

Which means that the answer is no then. You haven't been to a bookstore even remotely recently and looked at the subject matter of the overwhelming majority of romance titles.

Pointing out exceptions does not invalidate any of my points about the general attitudes of the mainstream normies that make up the majority of the population.

Look, I get it.

We both live in the same liberal Bay Area bubble. And unless you are actively mindful of seeing through the post-modern feminist, critical theory ideological BS, its amazing how much you just absorb through sheer osmosis via continued exposure.

But it's all lies bro.

Always has been.

The liberal freak-show minority we live around are just that; a minority. They are not representative at all of the attitudes, tastes, or social outlook of the majority normie population of men and women.

If they were then Marvel and DC comics wouldn't be in the gutter. Dr. Who wouldn't have one foot in the grave, and people would still be watching Star Trek on tv.

But now they are all shit because they had been "evolved" to reflect "modern sensibilities". And WotC is in the process of slowly doing the same to D&D.

Quote from: jhkim on January 19, 2022, 12:44:45 AM
Romance novels are doing well, but the content of romance novels has changed since the 1970s. I've only read about a dozen or so romance novels in my lifetime, so I'm not an expert - but the modern ones have seemed distinct from the older ones. There are still some similar themes - but there are also a lot of differences, like more women with successful careers and other tropes. This hasn't upended the genre, but it has shifted it - just as I'm sure that 1970s romance novels were different from 1920s romance novels.

Yes, the women now have jobs. But they still get 'saved' by the dominant male.

Anyway Red Sonja and other Action Girls are aimed at men, not women. And Red Sonja types are aimed at nerdier men like most of us, who enjoy dominant butt-kicking action heroines. Most Hollywood writers are nerds too, so they tend to like this kind of character, perhaps a bit too obsessively. 

Quote from: Jaeger on January 19, 2022, 02:18:23 AM

Quote from: jhkim on January 19, 2022, 12:44:45 AM
Also, as far as women's magazines, from what I can see the sales of women's magazines have plummeted over the past decade.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/322544/women-s-lifestyle-magazines--print-sales-revenue-uk/

The sale of all magazines have dwindled in the digital age:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/184055/estimated-revenue-of-us-periodical-publishers-since-2005/
https://natwestbusinesshub.com/articles/magazines-turning-the-page-in-the-age-of-digital

Quote from: Jaeger on January 19, 2022, 02:18:23 AM
The liberal freak-show minority we live around are just that; a minority. They are not representative at all of the attitudes, tastes, or social outlook of the majority normie population of men and women.

If they were then Marvel and DC comics wouldn't be in the gutter. Dr. Who wouldn't have one foot in the grave, and people would still be watching Star Trek on tv.

But now they are all shit because they had been "evolved" to reflect "modern sensibilities". And WotC is in the process of slowly doing the same to D&D.

So, if women's magazines have plummeting sales, it's because of other trends -- but if Marvel and DC are failing, it's because they're liberal, and if only they published exactly the same material they did in the 1970s they'd be successful?

I don't think my tastes aren't the same as the majority -- but the majority has, in fact, changed in their tastes from the majority in the 1970s. While Marvel and DC comics are failing, there are very successful franchises like Harry Potter and the Marvel Cinematic Universe. When I look at the popular franchises and brands, they look quite different from what was successful the 1970s. The mainstream is not the same as the liberal fringe, but they're also quite different than the 1970s mainstream.

Show me the evidence that the majority today really are into chainmail bikinis.

Quote from: jhkim on January 19, 2022, 02:52:03 AM
So, if women's magazines have plummeting sales, it's because of other trends -- but if Marvel and DC are failing, it's because they're liberal, and if only they published exactly the same material they did in the 1970s they'd be successful?

My son was just getting into Marvel comics - actual comics - when they fell off a cliff. This was not a gradual trend; the material clearly abandoned him. One month it was KAPOW!, the next it was talks-about-feelings for 60+ pages - he/we bought the anthologies at Forbidden Planet. I think this was around 2012-13, he would have been 5 in mid 2012, and I recall he had been enjoying the comics for a year or so when they went bad.

I bet sales would be lower than in the 1980s whatever the content, but comics that have not aggressively pursued 'get woke-go broke' are still readable. I also bet Forbidden Planet sales of eg 2000 AD have held up a lot better than Marvel.

Quote from: jhkim on January 19, 2022, 02:52:03 AM
Show me the evidence that the majority today really are into chainmail bikinis.

So, chainmail bikinis are always a nerd thing. Mostly male nerds, plus female cosplayers - and you need to be pretty confident in your looks to want to strut around a convention in a Red Sonja bikini.

My impression is that 'sexy cosplay' is a much bigger thing now than at the height of Red Sonja in the 1970s. I think this derives from the rise of gym culture and the rise of showing off on social media as socially acceptable. But OTOH nerd culture has become much more puritanical - arguably you John are evidence of this - but my 14 year old son is quite similar, so I think there is a general cultural shift too (I think possibly connected to the Internet & hardcore porn showing everywhere on search engines, asked for or not - anyway, the shift is real).

So I think the result is there is much less sexy fantasy art in mainstream nerd sources (like D&D or comics) but at the same time there is a lot more dressing up in sexy costumes. Often Anime stuff now.

The overwhelmingly crushingly incredible popularity of manga and anime over western produced 'heroic fiction' puts the proof to the lie of the woke.

That's it.

That's the entirety of the argument.

Manga is absolutely obliterating American comics and they do so by following the same typical traditions and tropes...and do so while tending to do so with far less restraint than the popular comics and fantasy work of the 70's and 80's and 90's.

So yeah. When one manga about a typical hero's journey of an unlikely boy hero having to engage in demon-decapitating action outsells literally the entirety of modern-day awful western comics it annihilates this nonsense about how tastes have somehow radically changed in the last decade or so.

Tastes haven't changed.

In fact, nothing has really changed...except the Puritans have managed to weasel their way in charge of a lot of media by playing on peoples better natures.

That time, however, is dwindling and I don't think they understand the whirlwind reaping they're courting...

EDIT:

Daki alone in Demon Slayer would give modern comics "creators" (destroys would be more apt) a conniption fit...

Quote from: S'mon on January 19, 2022, 04:40:43 AM
My impression is that 'sexy cosplay' is a much bigger thing now than at the height of Red Sonja in the 1970s. I think this derives from the rise of gym culture and the rise of showing off on social media as socially acceptable. But OTOH nerd culture has become much more puritanical - arguably you John are evidence of this - but my 14 year old son is quite similar, so I think there is a general cultural shift too (I think possibly connected to the Internet & hardcore porn showing everywhere on search engines, asked for or not - anyway, the shift is real).

So I think the result is there is much less sexy fantasy art in mainstream nerd sources (like D&D or comics) but at the same time there is a lot more dressing up in sexy costumes. Often Anime stuff now.

Quote from: Gog to Magog on January 19, 2022, 04:50:04 AM
Manga is absolutely obliterating American comics and they do so by following the same typical traditions and tropes...and do so while tending to do so with far less restraint than the popular comics and fantasy work of the 70's and 80's and 90's.

So yeah. When one manga about a typical hero's journey of an unlikely boy hero having to engage in demon-decapitating action outsells literally the entirety of modern-day awful western comics it annihilates this nonsense about how tastes have somehow radically changed in the last decade or so.

I disagree that modern manga tastes are the same as 1970s Western comics. Notably, both modern manga (Gog to Magog's point) and sexy cosplay (S'mon's point) are popular with women, while 1970s American comics and chainmail bikinis generally were not. I think that fits with my point.

I would say that tastes *have* changed -- and manga has successfully bridged between 1970s tastes and modern tastes -- as have some other modern successful brands like the Marvel Cinematic Universe (MCU) -- while DC and Marvel print comics have not. Also, I'd say that modern D&D art is more influenced by modern manga (i.e. what is popular now) than anything else.

For my tastes, I like the MCU - though I don't like either modern manga or modern DC/Marvel. My son is 21 now, and he grew up on a lot of classic DC/Marvel. I was never a comic book fan growing up - and only got into indie comics as an adult, but he was. We never followed the latest issues of any comic line, though, so the shift of comics in recent years wasn't visible to us. I've also been clear that I'm a fan of Macho Women With Guns - so I'm mystified that I'm being classified as "puritanical".

Quote from: S'mon on January 18, 2022, 12:53:18 AM

Quote from: Pat on January 17, 2022, 09:18:42 PM
But this idea that Red Sonja herself is portrayed as helpless more than Conan is simply not there in the pictures.

There are some 'heroine' characters who are frequently portrayed as helpless for purposes of titillation, but Red Sonja was a really bad example to pick!

Red Sonja wasn't my choice of example - it was picked by Jaegar, and I simply used the same source to discuss his broader claims. I'm fine to concede on that character. I never intended this to be about Red Sonja in particular.

The question is wider than that, though. From my experience of general 1970s and 1980s sources, men were more often posed like they were actually doing something - feet firmly planted, engaged in action. Women adventurers were not. As I sit here and scan through a bunch of my old RPG material, the difference stands out to me. Like when I look in the Dungeoneer's Survival Guide, I see illustrations like these:

....................

The women here don't convey actiony adventurers to me. The left one is obviously panicked. The right one isn't as obvious, but it's still pointed that while others are brandishing weapons and shield, the woman is putting her hand to her chest.

Quote from: jhkim on January 19, 2022, 12:47:17 PMI disagree that modern manga tastes are the same as 1970s Western comics. Notably, both modern manga (Gog to Magog's point) and sexy cosplay (S'mon's point) are popular with women, while 1970s American comics and chainmail bikinis generally were not. I think that fits with my point.

Your point doesn't deserve an answer really. Which is why I also disagree with points of refutation or justfication. Some women won't like chainmail bikinis, and some men had more men engaged in action then women in images. Tough. End of story.

Its so presumptious that this demands somesort of refutation. A man barges into your house, starts eating your cake and starts complaining about how its got peanuts and he has allergies. Everybody shouldn't be explaining how 'no these are faux peanuts', it should be 'get the fuck out of my house'.

Quote from: jhkim on January 19, 2022, 02:52:03 AM

So, if women's magazines have plummeting sales, it's because of other trends -- but if Marvel and DC are failing, it's because they're liberal, and if only they published exactly the same material they did in the 1970s they'd be successful?

These aren't contradictory takes. Just one look at the covers and inside of the largest fashion magazines will show you that the wokescolds have yet to get a real foothold. Because the fashionistas that run those rags can care less about some femanazi blue hairs opinion about body positivity. And we've gone over what Marvel and DC have done enough in threads you've been in that you should know the difference. It's a consistent and reasonable stance.

Quote from: jhkim on January 19, 2022, 02:52:03 AM
... While Marvel and DC comics are failing, there are very successful franchises like Harry Potter and the Marvel Cinematic Universe. ...

And they are successful because they followed the traditional heroic tropes that Marvel and DC have abandoned.

Updated visuals are just that. When it comes to characters and storytelling...

Tastes from the 70's have obviously not changed as much as you imply.

Successful 70's THOR:


Failed THOR Marvel tried to push:
"This is not She-Thor. This is not Lady Thor. This is not Thorita. This is Thor. This is the Thor of the Marvel Universe. But it's unlike any Thor we've ever seen before."


Successful Cinematic Universe THOR:


This is not hard.

Quote from: jhkim on January 19, 2022, 02:52:03 AM
Show me the evidence that the majority today really are into chainmail bikinis.

Chainmail bikini's have always been a sideshow. 

The fact that there have been people speaking out against the "chainmail bikini" sideshow since early in the hobby, making out like the "chainmail bikini" was some widespread symbol of misogyny just shows that the wokeoso's have always been around.

S'MON is correct when he stated: "But OTOH nerd culture has become much more puritanical ..."

Which is true, but largely IMHO as a result of an enforced puritanism due to the rise of wokeoso's within the hobby.

Still making big deals out of art that no one else trips out over.

Quote from: jhkim on January 19, 2022, 02:52:03 AM
I simply used the same source to discuss his broader claims.

My "broader Claims": From my Reply #342 on: January 13, 2022, 10:18:02 PM

1: Chainmail bikini art hurts no-one.

2: Revealing outfits are not a sign of unequal treatment of women

Only the wokoso's in the hobby, people that have drunk the Kool-Aid, and the young who have been propagandized care about either...

Quote from: jhkim on January 19, 2022, 02:52:03 AM
The women here don't convey actiony adventurers to me. The left one is obviously panicked. The right one isn't as obvious, but it's still pointed that while others are brandishing weapons and shield, the woman is putting her hand to her chest.

The Left one: The guy to the right of the woman is not holding an obvious weapon and raising his hand in alarm. At least the woman had a blade!

The Right one: The guy to her left has a shield, but no weapon in his free hand. Not exactly showing a willingness to fight compared to his fellow men is he?

In each pic there is a man being equally useless in the situation.

We can cherry pick D&D art all day:

Yes, she ran - But all those Cowardly men ran first!
(Same female adventurer from jhkim's "example"...)


She seems to be getting after it...


Just look at those cowardly men hiding behind the women adventurers...


Female Elf Front and Center!


No Fear showing in her face here...


She's not exactly running away from that vampire...


Early D&D "Iconic" Characters:



The halfling is just slow...


All this is classic D&D art from the bad old days when the wokeoso's tell us that D&D "lacked representation"...

#DON'TDRINKTHEKOOLAID

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 19, 2022, 01:22:42 PM

Quote from: jhkim on January 19, 2022, 12:47:17 PMI disagree that modern manga tastes are the same as 1970s Western comics. Notably, both modern manga (Gog to Magog's point) and sexy cosplay (S'mon's point) are popular with women, while 1970s American comics and chainmail bikinis generally were not. I think that fits with my point.

Your point doesn't deserve an answer really. Which is why I also disagree with points of refutation or justfication. Some women won't like chainmail bikinis, and some men had more men engaged in action then women in images. Tough. End of story.

Its so presumptious that this demands somesort of refutation. A man barges into your house, starts eating your cake and starts complaining about how its got peanuts and he has allergies. Everybody shouldn't be explaining how 'no these are faux peanuts', it should be 'get the fuck out of my house'.

How is this *your* house and I'm the outsider?

I've been a member on this site for ten years longer than you, Shrieking Banshee. I've been playing RPGs since the 1970s. What exactly makes me the intruder and you the owner?

Quote from: jhkim on January 19, 2022, 02:43:20 PMHow is this *your* house and I'm the outsider?

It was a metaphor.
Its about demanding accomedations for a outside group of people. On the assumption it goes against somebodies preferences or tastes and as such they need to be supplicated.

The demand itself is immensly presumptious. It stands from the position that some people just deserve things, and if they don't like it therefore its wrong.
Its similar to the point that demands diversity. That diversity is a uniquely good thing and that its owed. Instead of being a 100% neutral thing not uniquely worthy of praise and completly fine with being ignored.

The philosophical principle behind demanding removal of whatever style of dress you dislike (or demanding representation of dress types you see as 'good') is the exact same as the kind that demanded demons and devils be removed. Its not about prudishness, its about a completly unearned sense of self importance over others.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 19, 2022, 02:57:01 PM

Quote from: jhkim on January 19, 2022, 02:43:20 PMHow is this *your* house and I'm the outsider?

It was a metaphor.
Its about demanding accomedations for a outside group of people. On the assumption it goes against somebodies preferences or tastes and as such they need to be supplicated.

The demand itself is immensly presumptious. It stands from the position that some people just deserve things, and if they don't like it therefore its wrong.
Its similar to the point that demands diversity. That diversity is a uniquely good thing and that its owed. Instead of being a 100% neutral thing not uniquely worthy of praise and completly fine with being ignored.

The philosophical principle behind demanding removal of whatever style of dress you dislike (or demanding representation of dress types you see as 'good') is the exact same as the kind that demanded demons and devils be removed. Its not about prudishness, its about a completly unearned sense of self importance over others.

It seems to me that you're the one who is claiming unearned ownership, and making demands. By analogy, you are the one claiming to be the house owner, when I've never claimed such.

In reality, neither you nor I own D&D. Wizards of the Coast does. I don't claim to own the house, nor do I expect WotC to cater to my tastes. I'll express my opinion, but I have no expectation that anyone is going to follow it - either at WotC or here at theRPGsite.

Quote from: jhkim on January 19, 2022, 03:58:01 PMIt seems to me that you're the one who is claiming unearned ownership, and making demands. By analogy, you are the one claiming to be the house owner, when I've never claimed such.

I will admit I am mixing you and Fixable together. You are mostly stating your personal preference, as opposed to demands like Fixable did.
I will take back your point about claims of ownership, and apologize.
I will say that I don't see emperiled women illustrations being a problem in need of fixing, and there are times when it gets on my nerves as well, but mostly in manga.