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Author Topic: Wizards Announces New "Evolved" D&D Revision  (Read 18040 times)

Zirunel

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Re: Wizards Announces New "Evolved" D&D Revision
« Reply #345 on: January 14, 2022, 11:37:07 AM »
Certainly not the 61% of D&D players that are males, according to WotC's own survey results.

"But, but, the same WotC survey shows that 39% of D&D players are women!

So WotC is claiming with those statistics that there are only two genders? Not very "evolved" after all, eh?

(Unless of course limiting percentages to "100" is racist now.)

No, my understanding of the WOTC stats is that "Other/Non-Binary" were indeed broken out as another category,  but amounted to <1%

Wrath of God

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Re: Wizards Announces New "Evolved" D&D Revision
« Reply #346 on: January 14, 2022, 03:13:41 PM »
Quote
It's actually pretty badass to go into battle half naked. It's a statement: Here's my flesh to cut, if you dare.

Gauls/Celts fought naked, at least we think some of them did.

So by pretty badass we mean utterly slaughered and almost extinct?
"Never compromise. Not even in the face of Armageddon.”

"And I will strike down upon thee
With great vengeance and furious anger"


"Molti Nemici, Molto Onore"

Hzilong

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Re: Wizards Announces New "Evolved" D&D Revision
« Reply #347 on: January 14, 2022, 03:20:01 PM »
Quote
It's actually pretty badass to go into battle half naked. It's a statement: Here's my flesh to cut, if you dare.

Gauls/Celts fought naked, at least we think some of them did.

So by pretty badass we mean utterly slaughered and almost extinct?

It did work a little bit. If I remember there are Roman accounts that say they were freaked out by those celts with their dongs out. Granted, they did lose that war of conquest eventually, but they did make the legions bleed pretty badly.

rytrasmi

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Re: Wizards Announces New "Evolved" D&D Revision
« Reply #348 on: January 14, 2022, 03:26:05 PM »
Quote
It's actually pretty badass to go into battle half naked. It's a statement: Here's my flesh to cut, if you dare.

Gauls/Celts fought naked, at least we think some of them did.

So by pretty badass we mean utterly slaughered and almost extinct?
Ah yes, always the contrarian, my friend. 

The Romans feared the Gauls for centuries. From the first sack of Rome until Caesar.

jmarso

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Re: Wizards Announces New "Evolved" D&D Revision
« Reply #349 on: January 14, 2022, 06:17:14 PM »
Asterix and Obelisk gave those Roman bastids what for!!

(Some of you are old enough to get the reference...) ;)

Wrath of God

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Re: Wizards Announces New "Evolved" D&D Revision
« Reply #350 on: January 15, 2022, 10:12:16 PM »
Quote
The Romans feared the Gauls for centuries. From the first sack of Rome until Caesar.

Ah yes Gallic Celts indeed were formidable foes for Rome for long time, I agree.
But IIRC fighting nakes was Britton custom, and attitude towards Britton was vastly different in Roman chronicles than towards their continental cousins, am I wrong?


"Never compromise. Not even in the face of Armageddon.”

"And I will strike down upon thee
With great vengeance and furious anger"


"Molti Nemici, Molto Onore"

jhkim

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Re: Wizards Announces New "Evolved" D&D Revision
« Reply #351 on: January 17, 2022, 04:01:44 AM »
As far as chainmail bikinis go - I've never liked strictly "chainmail bikini" illustrations, but I am fine with some revealing outfits. I think revealing outfits *can be* a sign of unequal treatment of women, but they aren't necessarily. I wouldn't put either realism or lack of revealing outfits as something I look for -- but having female figures be heroic and varied is something I do look for.

And this is an inherently false idea.

To explain more of what I'm saying -- my most common issue is when women in revealing outfits are portrayed as helpless victims more than men in revealing outfits, and less often as powerful heroes. Beefcake like shirtless Conan typically shows him in a heroic fighting stance as he tears into his foes. At least in 1970s comics and fantasy, women are far more likely to be shown as victims when they are cheesecake.

"Chainmail bikini" art hurts no one.

Certainly not the 61% of D&D players that are males, according to WotC's own survey results.

"But, but, the same WotC survey shows that 39% of D&D players are women! What about them you sexist pig!?"

To that, all I shall say is that this is the cover of a Red Sonja comic from 1975:



And this is the most recent cover of ELLE magazine*; readily available in grocery stores everywhere in the US. In plain view, to be seen by all and sundry:



* FYI: Elle is the world's largest women's fashion magazine. As in a magazine made by women for women, to appeal to as wide an audience of women as possible...

I have no issue with either of those covers. The Red Sonja cover shows her defeating a horde of enemies, and the Elle cover is of someone who isn't a fantasy hero - just a woman intentionally looking sexy. My point is ​that Red Sonja is more often portrayed like this:



And Conan isn't portrayed the same way in his covers. Specifically in the case of D&D, the original 1e DMG shows an adventurer in a metal bikini clutched in the arms of the giant efreet. There are very few other illustrations of women adventurers in the original books, and there are no corresponding pictures of beefcake men in such a position.

There's nothing wrong with sexiness. The issue is when sexiness is used as an excuse for women adventurers to be portrayed as victims.

Gog to Magog

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Re: Wizards Announces New "Evolved" D&D Revision
« Reply #352 on: January 17, 2022, 04:06:57 AM »

There's nothing wrong with sexiness. The issue is when sexiness is used as an excuse for women adventurers to be portrayed as victims.

And yet women do not desire to see men in weak positions but do identify and empathize with women in 'victim' positions while feeling greater sense of accomplishment when they recover from that

BTW, if you read classic Conan, he was victimized CONSTANTLY and put in shackles, stripped, etc. It was SUPER common to the point where it was a normal thing.

Neither women nor men want to see Conan in 'peril' like Sonja is on that cover, however.

Meanwhile, psychologically, largely speaking both men and women are fine with women being shown like that.

Crazy but it seems like men and women might have differently wired brains both for how they perceive things AND how they perceive the two sexes
He said only: "Men shall die for this". He meant the words.

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: Wizards Announces New "Evolved" D&D Revision
« Reply #353 on: January 17, 2022, 09:48:13 AM »
There's nothing wrong with sexiness. The issue is when sexiness is used as an excuse for women adventurers to be portrayed as victims.
An excuse? In the case of something like Sonya, its more an excuse to portray a compitent adventurer incompitently for more sexiness on the cover.
And even if it where the case, what is the actual problem? Plenty of women love to roleplay as victims, and being defined by victimhood.

'Men Telling a story the way they like - SHUT IT DOWN"

Omega

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Re: Wizards Announces New "Evolved" D&D Revision
« Reply #354 on: January 17, 2022, 10:09:33 AM »
Exactly all this for a time was infesting LARPs with the "Thoku" movement.
Handicapped players? Nope. Verboten as Glasses are unrealistic. Only the pretty people can play.
Clothing? Most colours are verboten as that is unrealistic. Except for those special people that can.
Armour? ditto.
and on down the line to the point that they got their realism and real blood and injuries. Which was really the goal. "Its not real till you bleed!!!"

All the while spitting on any other style or concerns of safety.

Wow that is some legit insanity. I had never heard of that before. I've only ever been to LARP once and it was a VtM LARP I was tangentially invited to which was just a bunch of awkward people around an inner clique of game runners that just wanted everything to basically revolve around them. I spent the night just getting people to argue by rumor-mongering because they were all really credulous and bad at social interactions. So at least that was kind of funny

What you're describing sounds...crazy to a whole other level. I will have to look that up

Thoku tried gain control over LARPing around the same time the Storygamer cult was doing the same to RPGs. Oft with the same battle cry of "muh immershun!" And I kid you not. The leaders of this faction were advocating that when a player got injured in a session that they keep RPing as if it happened in the session... for "muh immershun!". Boffer arrows? Dont be daft. You have to use REAL arrows. Real swords. and of course Real injuries were happening. While a spin off faction was pushing for non-combat "emotional" LARPs. Pushing to get the players into real emotions. And often not the good ones. Fear, Dread, Despair, Anger, etc. Oft referred to as Nordic LARP as that and Thoku originated in the nordic lands. Sweeden and such where there were before this sometimes hosted enormous and elabourate LARPs with some pretty impressive props and locations.


Omega

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Re: Wizards Announces New "Evolved" D&D Revision
« Reply #355 on: January 17, 2022, 10:15:03 AM »
"Oh but much realism..."

"Okay so you're suddenly going to say a blind swordsman shouldn't be viable? And of course you're railing against the wheel-chair adventurer because 'muh realism'... Oh and all the stylized clothing HAS to go, right? And leather armor? LEATHER? That's not realistic. Jettison it. All that crazy hair color and improbable adventures these adventurers are having? THAT doesn't seem too realistic either... Oh speaking of armor why not speak of weaponry? Those oversized swords with accoutrements or fighting unarmed against armed & armored opponents? SO LONG TO ALL THAT! Right??"

And, naturally, no no no...that can all stay because "vague fantasy reasons that allow that to happen because I want it in but that thing you want that is straight-out because muh realism"

It's just such transparent bullshit.

Exactly all this for a time was infesting LARPs with the "Thoku" movement.
Handicapped players? Nope. Verboten as Glasses are unrealistic. Only the pretty people can play.
Clothing? Most colours are verboten as that is unrealistic. Except for those special people that can.
Armour? ditto.
and on down the line to the point that they got their realism and real blood and injuries. Which was really the goal. "Its not real till you bleed!!!"

All the while spitting on any other style or concerns of safety.
Don't confuse characters with the players.

Nobody has a problem with meeting a handicapped player halfway. But a handicapped character needs to bring something serious to the table or it breaks realism.

(There's a reason why oracle curses in PF are double-edged swords, and even then some curses are a fucking pain to deal with)

No. This was a call to disallow handicapped Players and their characters. Thoku was on another level of elitist fuckery and they got lambasted for it as they deserved.

Omega

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Re: Wizards Announces New "Evolved" D&D Revision
« Reply #356 on: January 17, 2022, 10:24:30 AM »
Who suffers from depicting women in chainmail bikinis exactly?


The Wokerati. So by all means we need more chainmail bikinis. ;)

un-Hilariiusly, the SJW creep who attacked a guy at Gencon and other cons, tried to cash in on this at one point. It failed to fund or failed to deliver as of last check a year or three back.

Omega

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Re: Wizards Announces New "Evolved" D&D Revision
« Reply #357 on: January 17, 2022, 10:27:30 AM »
If you want to make the argument that chainmail bikinis are impractical and uncomfortable, that's a reasonable tack to take.

(remember, typically you wore a quilted garment under the chainmail to prevent chafing)

Heck, there's a minor gag in the Azure Bonds novels about Alias's chain shirt, which has a ridiculous amount of cleavage. But it's also heavily enchanted and that bare spot is NOT vulnerable. Dragonbait actually disapproves of the shirt (well, he IS a paladin). Good times and fun lampshading.

But complaining about cheesecake is pretty damned hypocritical if you don't complain about beefcake as well.

The prude patrol has been on this kick since well before RPGs.

Omega

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Re: Wizards Announces New "Evolved" D&D Revision
« Reply #358 on: January 17, 2022, 10:34:37 AM »
It's actually pretty badass to go into battle half naked. It's a statement: Here's my flesh to cut, if you dare.

Gauls/Celts fought naked, at least we think some of them did.

That and its not really armor in the D&D sense but all the prudes here and elsewhere are singlminded in their stupid.

Sonja for example is an agility fighter type. More armour would slow her down and she'd lose that edge. This and in the early comics she payed the price often and got dinged up quite a bit, even soundly defeated if someone could land a telling blow. She lives and (nearly) dies by her DEX score.

And its a scale mail bikini you morons.  8)


Omega

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Re: Wizards Announces New "Evolved" D&D Revision
« Reply #359 on: January 17, 2022, 10:37:20 AM »


And Conan isn't portrayed the same way in his covers. Specifically in the case of D&D, the original 1e DMG shows an adventurer in a metal bikini clutched in the arms of the giant efreet. There are very few other illustrations of women adventurers in the original books, and there are no corresponding pictures of beefcake men in such a position.

There's nothing wrong with sexiness. The issue is when sexiness is used as an excuse for women adventurers to be portrayed as victims.

You copy-pasted this screed from the woke bitchbook.
It was false then. Its false now.