Quote from: RPGPundit on November 25, 2021, 02:53:20 PM

Quote from: Tubesock Army on November 24, 2021, 09:28:38 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on October 05, 2021, 02:12:03 PM

Quote from: horsesoldier on October 04, 2021, 08:37:48 AM
This is the first edition of DnD to be helmed by total mediocrities. Every other edition has something the designs can point to as their masterpiece. What does Perkins, Crawford et al have?

Nothing.

Aside from the most popular edition of the world's most popular RPG lmao

They were not the creators of that RPG, though. They "have" the Good Name of that edition on their side, which is an advantage to be sure. But 4e's designers had the Good Name of 3e to bank on, and then completely tanked when they put out a Shit Edition anyways.

And just like with 4e, look for D&D CRT Edition to SHIT ALL OVER 5e, in this case talking about how bigoted and transphobic and White-male-oriented and Colonialist it was and how anyone who ever like it (or maybe even played it) was a Literal Nazi.

Its funny that you are on this campaign against an edition you actually helped build (you're a consultant on 5e right?) But I guess you eat your own and you turncoat when needed. As you are a part of the outrage brigade. Like OMG they use 'they/them' pronouns... its the END OF THE WORLD... omg.

Quote from: fixable on December 03, 2021, 03:32:20 AMIts funny that you are on this campaign against an edition you actually helped build (you're a consultant on 5e right?) But I guess you eat your own and you turncoat when needed. As you are a part of the outrage brigade. Like OMG they use 'they/them' pronouns... its the END OF THE WORLD... omg.

While I think 5e is hot garbage, and that the Pundits consultation is him hyping himself up for an achievement of nothing (for all his hate of 4e, 5e is largely just 4e repackaged), this is a moronic comparison.
If you make something, and then later down the line other people involved make it worse: of course your gonna be upset!

This is one of those 'Getting people fired for calling somebody gay when they where 13 is totally comprable to discussing how much you don't like a new release' false equivalencies
And like OMG are you really like like OMG doing that?

Quote from: Mistwell on November 30, 2021, 09:18:00 PM

Quote from: palaeomerus on November 30, 2021, 10:01:29 AM
Seems like D&D is less likely to be evolved than gelded and chained to the turning arm of a pump or mill like a draft horse, where the pump is a youtube show, and online play app, and a Hot Topic shelf as ab afterthought. Buy t-shirts and pops.

More people are actually playing D&D today than ever played it before. And that's not an non-sequitur to your comment, it just takes some thought as to why that's relevant to what you claimed.

Do you have any evidence of this? Yes, they are certainly selling more stuff including rule books. But even before this virus apocalypse, my FLGS were mostly filled with people playing MtG, Pokeman, and board games. It was rare to see another table playing an RPG.

The numbers of online gaming servers are quite big AFAIK.

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 03, 2021, 02:26:46 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on November 30, 2021, 09:18:00 PM
...
More people are actually playing D&D today than ever played it before. ...

Do you have any evidence of this? Yes, they are certainly selling more stuff including rule books. But even before this virus apocalypse, my FLGS were mostly filled with people playing MtG, Pokeman, and board games. It was rare to see another table playing an RPG.

IMHO He's right - 5e's sales certainly bear that out. We have WOTCs PR releases - but they are backed up pretty well by ICV2 and Amazon's sales rankings.

But it is still no surprise that CCG's are still #1 for gaming stores when we take a look at a rough estimate of what D&D makes vs. Magic:

For the end of 2020: According to Forbes, Magic made $581.2 million in 2020. ICv2 notes that WotC made $816 million in sales in 2020. D&D would then be roughly $234.8 million.

D&D had 30%+ growth for several years running, and is still makes less than Half of what Magic brings in...

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 03, 2021, 02:26:46 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on November 30, 2021, 09:18:00 PM

Quote from: palaeomerus on November 30, 2021, 10:01:29 AM
Seems like D&D is less likely to be evolved than gelded and chained to the turning arm of a pump or mill like a draft horse, where the pump is a youtube show, and online play app, and a Hot Topic shelf as ab afterthought. Buy t-shirts and pops.

More people are actually playing D&D today than ever played it before. And that's not an non-sequitur to your comment, it just takes some thought as to why that's relevant to what you claimed.

Do you have any evidence of this? Yes, they are certainly selling more stuff including rule books. But even before this virus apocalypse, my FLGS were mostly filled with people playing MtG, Pokeman, and board games. It was rare to see another table playing an RPG.

That's largely a function of logistics.  It's pretty trivially easy to just show up to a store with a deck or two and play a handful of games in a couple of hours as opposed to gathering a like-minded group together to spend 4 or more hours playing an RPG.  I'm not passing any judgement on the worthiness of either activity but PUG ccgs or even boardgames are easier.

Quote from: KingCheops on December 03, 2021, 05:07:24 PM
...
That's largely a function of logistics.  It's pretty trivially easy to just show up to a store with a deck or two and play a handful of games in a couple of hours as opposed to gathering a like-minded group together to spend 4 or more hours playing an RPG.  I'm not passing any judgement on the worthiness of either activity but PUG ccgs or even boardgames are easier.

Yes D&D was lucky to hit at the time it did before home video games started getting really good. Or ccg's became a thing.

IMHO it is almost a fluke that RPGs are as big as they are.

RPG's are a hobby activity, not a past time. Hobbies take actual work to do the fun stuff, unlike past times; like following sports.

RPGs are also unique in that The majority of the work is offloaded onto the GM that runs the game. So the hobbyist of the group is the GM, with the majority of the players viewing RPGs as a past time activity that they put minimal effort into for their fun.

Of course within individual groups there are exceptions, but generally that is the norm for the hobby.

Yeah, sales are high. The trouble with correlating sales numbers to active players/GMs are all the confounding factors, such as:

- Range. If you need 7 books to play now and only 2 before, then you can expect more sales per player/GM now.

- Different products. Toys, board games, apparel, digital fluff, licensing of video games, if all this is counted as D&D sales, it does not mean more players. All of this has increased steadily since D&D was first created.

- Triers. Someone who buys a few books because they saw it on Stranger Things, plays a couple times, and never plays again. 4x4 trucks/SUVs are very popular but actual 4x4ing in the mud isn't. I expect there are more of these people now because of all the media promoting D&D.

- Collectors. Everyone on this board probably has multiple rules books they bought just because they liked the system or the art without expectation of actually playing. I know I've got more than my share. Collectors have always been around, but they have much more money now because they are getting older. The 80s teenager who could barely afford the Players Handbook can now buy all the D&D stuff he wants.

D&D is certainly more popular than ever before. It's a very diversified brand that Hasbro is milking as much as they possibly can. It's in their interest to suggest that playing D&D has never been more popular.

I agree with Jaeger, though. It's a hobby for the DM and a pastime for most players. So this tells me that the real graph to look at to determine if D&D is increasing in popularity is sales year-over-year of the Dungeon Master's Guide.

Others have tried to untangle the statistics: https://www.mtblackgames.com/blog/how-many-dnd-players-are-there

It probably is true that there are more players now than ever, but it's difficult to prove and I don't think it's as dramatic as the sales numbers suggest.

Quote from: fixable on December 03, 2021, 03:32:20 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 25, 2021, 02:53:20 PM

Quote from: Tubesock Army on November 24, 2021, 09:28:38 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on October 05, 2021, 02:12:03 PM

Quote from: horsesoldier on October 04, 2021, 08:37:48 AM
This is the first edition of DnD to be helmed by total mediocrities. Every other edition has something the designs can point to as their masterpiece. What does Perkins, Crawford et al have?

Nothing.

Aside from the most popular edition of the world's most popular RPG lmao

They were not the creators of that RPG, though. They "have" the Good Name of that edition on their side, which is an advantage to be sure. But 4e's designers had the Good Name of 3e to bank on, and then completely tanked when they put out a Shit Edition anyways.

And just like with 4e, look for D&D CRT Edition to SHIT ALL OVER 5e, in this case talking about how bigoted and transphobic and White-male-oriented and Colonialist it was and how anyone who ever like it (or maybe even played it) was a Literal Nazi.

Its funny that you are on this campaign against an edition you actually helped build (you're a consultant on 5e right?) But I guess you eat your own and you turncoat when needed. As you are a part of the outrage brigade. Like OMG they use 'they/them' pronouns... its the END OF THE WORLD... omg.

That's one hell of a take. I'm defending the current edition, against people who want to change it not to make it more gameable, but to suit an ideological agenda. Who is 'eating their own' here?

Quote from: Jaeger on December 03, 2021, 09:31:25 PM

RPG's are a hobby activity, not a past time. Hobbies take actual work to do the fun stuff, unlike past times; like following sports.

You never was a GM, was you?

Quote from: Reckall on December 05, 2021, 02:36:59 AM

Quote from: Jaeger on December 03, 2021, 09:31:25 PM

RPG's are a hobby activity, not a past time. Hobbies take actual work to do the fun stuff, unlike past times; like following sports.

You never was a GM, was you?

Effort/work, however you want to word it; GM's put in more to run the game than players do playing it.

How is that is a controversial statement?

Depending on how one preps and the game, the amount put in before each session can vary.

I've put in a few hours making up a set piece race that the PC's wanted to compete in. But more often than not its just 4-5 bullet point one sentence notes for the session.

You'll have to explain your difference of opinion better.

Well I mean D&D has dropped 80% in sales in the last year while other companies have seen sales go up.

Just saying.

Quote from: Ka'arl Sorcerer of Cha'alt on December 06, 2021, 05:40:08 PM
Well I mean D&D has dropped 80% in sales in the last year while other companies have seen sales go up.

Just saying.

If that number is accurate, then that explains their perceived "need" to release something new.  Where did you find the "80%" drop in sales number?

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on November 30, 2021, 10:05:12 PM
I actually saw D&D licensed candy in the store (and not some generic brand). Which was practically unthinkable for D&D for the last 20+ years.

Before, I was saddened at the idea that the worst edition of D&D would be the one to get the mass acclaim. But having familiarized myself with how reboots and marketting work as a whole, it makes perfect sense.

Yeah D&D Nerds candy...
Link to video
https://dnd.wizards.com/nerds

Quote from: KingCheops on December 03, 2021, 05:07:24 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 03, 2021, 02:26:46 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on November 30, 2021, 09:18:00 PM

Quote from: palaeomerus on November 30, 2021, 10:01:29 AM
Seems like D&D is less likely to be evolved than gelded and chained to the turning arm of a pump or mill like a draft horse, where the pump is a youtube show, and online play app, and a Hot Topic shelf as ab afterthought. Buy t-shirts and pops.

More people are actually playing D&D today than ever played it before. And that's not an non-sequitur to your comment, it just takes some thought as to why that's relevant to what you claimed.

Do you have any evidence of this? Yes, they are certainly selling more stuff including rule books. But even before this virus apocalypse, my FLGS were mostly filled with people playing MtG, Pokeman, and board games. It was rare to see another table playing an RPG.

That's largely a function of logistics.  It's pretty trivially easy to just show up to a store with a deck or two and play a handful of games in a couple of hours as opposed to gathering a like-minded group together to spend 4 or more hours playing an RPG.  I'm not passing any judgement on the worthiness of either activity but PUG ccgs or even boardgames are easier.

I agree with you, but I recently got into Twilight Imperium 4th edition, and I have to smile.

(TI 4 is a huge game that can take more than 6 hours to play. We have gotten good at recording the game with phone pics and taking two days to finish a game.)