Heh, it's funny. I love me my AD&D 2e and SJG In Nomine, two games that aren't all that popular here. However, the games I like need no defense to people who don't enjoy it. That and white knighting is rather pointless.

And, on a further tangent, I too can recognize the interpretive differences within a material -- and not be gullible (or belligerent) to extrapolate my interpretation upon everything to exclusion. Learning to disagree gracefully is an art, apparently.

But fuck that noise! We got a record to achieve -- to 5000 posts and beyond! All y'all are wankers and wrong and wizards are paper tigers covered in tinsel! Flame on!

Quote from: Opaopajr;577773But fuck that noise! We got a record to achieve -- to 5000 posts and beyond! All y'all are wankers and wrong and wizards are paper tigers covered in tinsel! Flame on!

Yeah!

Quote from: JRR TolkienFighters are the best class and anyone who disagrees is a fucking prick.

Quote from: jibbajibba;577565But on a macro level a caster can hit a fighter then retreat and then do the same thing the next day and the next and the next. In old editions of D&D (2e and prior) HP heal so slowly that the unsupported fighter will wear down as they have no way to recover that key resource HP. Whereas the caster can go and recover their 3 , 4, 5 ,6 spell combo every day.

So my Wizard telports in invisible hits the figther with a fireball then teleports out. Costs 4 spells, invisibility, teleport, fireball, teleport. Chuck in a scry spell for luck.
The wizard can turn up smack the fighter, who may save for 50%, then gone. Then do the same tomorrow as all spells recovery every day... the fighter however will recover 1 HP per day, 2 if he rests all day. Overtime the fighter in this scenario is doomed.....
Now I think its a good claim for a faster healing mechanism like the HD mechanism in 5e.

Also in earlier editions Fighters effectively heal slower than everyone else. If a Fighter has 20 HP at 3rd level he heals 5% of hits per day. a wizard with 8 HP at 3rd level heals 12.5% of HP per day a recovery rate 2.5 times faster ....

some consideration. (based on 2nd edition rules)

every teleport have a chance to teleport the wizard into the ground, from 1 to 15% depending on how familiar he is with the place.

and the mission is far from safe, after he cast the fireball is visible, if the fighter have a ranged weapon (like a bow) he can attack back, and if he hit the wizard can't cast for the rest of the round, the next round the fighter can get near and attack again, it is not a certain death for the wizard but the fighter is not exactly defenseless. the wizard could use a scroll to teleport but in previous editions scrolls are less common than in 3e, and the wizard must repeat the trick an half dozen time if he want to kill the fighter.

And this is some example of why, while the wizard-fighter gap was still present, especially at high level, it was less relevant in older editions

Quote from: jibbajibba;577756What are you talkig about ?

I described a differnt number of encounters against a group, an individual or a desperate battle to save the party.... all different encounters.....

In encounter 1 the Wizard stands around holding his Torch the Fighter and the Cleric bully the pair of goblins into submission , not combat occurs.

In combat 2 suddenly another 8 goblins turn up and the would be guides attack to, the wizard has no choice but to reveal himself and use sleep.

In combat 3 they find out the goblins were working for an Ogre, the Ogre is dealing with the party who are trying to see if they can get past but he betrays then and attacks the party get suprised and the fighter take a hit, the Ogre does not automatically attack the wizzard because he has fuck all idea who is is whereas there is a bloke in front of him with armour and a sword. The wizard casts invisibility on the thief who gets a backstab on the ogre and finishes him.

In Combat 4 they face 3 ogres the Wizz hard to go for the fireball so reveals himself and FBs the ogre group

In combat 5 etc etc ......

Sorry If I suggested it was all in one combat me bad. I was doign it quick whilst watching telly.

In your game a typical 5th level party encounters a few goblins as a typical encounter?  Combat 4 is about the only example you have of a common encounter a 5th level party would face.  If you're only going to use goblins, the fighter would mow through them anyway without breaking a sweat.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;577798In your game a typical 5th level party encounters a few goblins as a typical encounter?  Combat 4 is about the only example you have of a common encounter a 5th level party would face.  If you're only going to use goblins, the fighter would mow through them anyway without breaking a sweat.

Given how tight 2e is with spells (and thus with healing) I don't think that a 2e party can face 4 common encounters much less the 10 you implied earlier.

Quote from: Lord Mistborn;577803Given how tight 2e is with spells (and thus with healing) I don't think that a 2e party can face 4 common encounters much less the 10 you implied earlier.

That's what you get for thinking.

I'm not talking about just 2e, but AD&D as well.

Secondly, I've been playing AD&D continuous for over 30 years, and going through 6-10 encounters before being able to find a suitable place for 8 hours of rest is not uncommon.  Seriously, this world would be a much better place if people who never played TSR D&D would stop assuming what was or wasn't possible.

Indeed, been playing lots of AD&D/2e the last year or so. It's amazing how swingy combat is.

When hill giants have 35ish hp and level six fighters can hit them for over 30 a round, a fight can be a bloodbath or a slaughter.

I remember in 4e, the players met a green slime. Just one, way below the characters' level, but I was fiddling with wandering monster charts. Everyone freaked out because, hey, if there's an encounter budget, then every encounter is gonna cost something.

The effect is only slightly less in 3e, but encourage DMs for 3e to try it sometime, throw in an  obvious fight, with something way too low, and watch the metagamers try to figure out where the invisible dragon or whatever must be.

So far, it seems the Denner's position is this:

Denner: MUs are way overpowered.  They have this, and that, and this, and that.
Grog: Uh, not in AD&D they weren't.  They were limited by only a few spell slots, had to worry about spell interruptions, spell components, hoped you memorized the right spell for this scenario, and often you went through 6-10 encounters before being able to rest long enough to re memorize your spells.
Denner: That's impossible and could never happen.  So they are overpowered even in AD&D as well.


:jaw-dropping:

Now that I'm home, here are some wandering monster tables from popular AD&D modules:

A1 Slave pits
Encounter occurs 1 in 6 (d6), check each turn

C1 Hidden Shrine
These monsters are encountered 1 chance in 12, check
each turn.

C2 Ghost Tower
Chance of encounter is 1 in 6

I1 Forbidden City
The chance for an encounter is 1 in 8, rolled every 3
turns.

I2 Tomb of the Lizard king
The DM should roll for random encounters six times per day: morning, noon, evening, night, midnight, and
pre-dawn. If the party has a planned encounter during the time period in question, no random encounter
will occur. A random encounter is indicated on a roll of 1 on d8.

S2 White Plume Mountain
1 in 12, every turn

S4 Lost Caverns
Daytime encounters occur whenever the
party stops in or passes through a hex with a dot (every 10 miles or so)

If the party is near a lettered encounter area and making
a great deal of noise, or merely waiting quietly for more than one turn,
there is a 1 in 6 chance that the monster nearby will come and
investigate -inside the dungeon

For those keeping track at home, a turn is 10 minutes.  So odds are that you would be encountering a wandering monster every hour or every 2 hours (depending on the module)

Very cool info, Sacrosanct. Thanks for gathering it all.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;577849So far, it seems the Denner's position is this:

Denner: MUs are way overpowered.  They have this, and that, and this, and that.
Grog: Uh, not in AD&D they weren't.  They were limited by only a few spell slots, had to worry about spell interruptions, spell components, hoped you memorized the right spell for this scenario, and often you went through 6-10 encounters before being able to rest long enough to re memorize your spells.
Denner: That's impossible and could never happen.  So they are overpowered even in AD&D as well.


:jaw-dropping:

Sacro, if you think this is an accurate breakdown of the last few pages I have figured out why you are not worth talking to. You are not actually reading the same conversation everyone else is. This is especially true if you consider that actual regular Den regulars haven't made any posts in the last few pages.

However since you're going to clog up the thread and attempt to make the point that wizards just run out of juice in an 8 encounter day how about you make up actual higher level fighter and a wizard (appropriate to whatever system you want to use) and actually show how a fighter outpaces a wizard over the course of the day.

Quote from: Lord Mistborn;577803Given how tight 2e is with spells (and thus with healing) I don't think that a 2e party can face 4 common encounters much less the 10 you implied earlier.

It's obvious you never played a version of Dnd not made by Wotc and very few around here beyond myself are even fans of 3x and less still consider it real Dnd. My advice to you is sit down, shut up, and listen hard.

I'd help more Sacrosanct but I have Wilsonmania!!!:D

I'd marry the man right now problem is he is already married, too young, and way too intelligent for the likes of me. GO SEAHAWKS!!!

Quote from: MGuy;577868Sacro, if you think this is an accurate breakdown of the last few pages I have figured out why you are not worth talking to. You are not actually reading the same conversation everyone else is.

This^  This is what we call irony folks.  As always, MGuy never fails to do the exact thing he just got done accusing others of.  For example, this:

QuoteHowever since you're going to clog up the thread and attempt to make the point that wizards just run out of juice in an 8 encounter day how about you make up actual higher level fighter and a wizard (appropriate to whatever system you want to use) and actually show how a fighter outpaces a wizard over the course of the day.

Shows that he hasn't been reading the posts because I'm pretty sure I've said more than once that who cares about end game levels because 90% of game play never occurs there.  Most game play, especially in AD&D was at level 10 and below.

To recap: MGuy just accuses me of not following the same conversation as everyone else and immediately says something that shows he's not following the same conversation as everyone else.

I have to wonder if you do this on purpose for the lulz.

Quote from: Marleycat;577869I'd help more Sacrosanct but I have Wilsonmania!!!!!:D

 Word!

Quote from: Marleycat;577869I have Wilsonmania!!! GO SEAHAWKS!!!

:teehee: