Quote from: Sacrosanct;578492Newsflash:  The DM not catering to your every whim, no matter how fucked up it is, doesn't make him or her a shit DM.  It makes you a spoiled brat with entitlement issues.

When the chart next to my class and level says I get x spells of y level. I expect x spells of y level. I expect the DM not to fuck with my character sheet just because the game says he can.

Quote from: Lord Mistborn;578496When the chart next to my class and level says I get x spells of y level. I expect x spells of y level. I expect the DM not to fuck with my character sheet just because the game says he can.

And as the DM, I expect you to be familiar with the class you're playing, and if the book says that if you're doing questionable things not in accordance with your faith, then it's perfectly reasonable for your deity to withhold spells.  I certainly expect you to have read that passage at some point.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;578498And as the DM, I expect you to be familiar with the class you're playing, and if the book says that if you're doing questionable things not in accordance with your faith, then it's perfectly reasonable for your deity to withhold spells.  I certainly expect you to have read that passage at some point.

ahem

Quote from: StormBringer;578433the DM can simulate the 'mysterious ways' of a deity by dicing spells for the day

This was the post I was responding to originally.

The DM has the power in theory to strip clerics and paladins of their stuff at any time, The players expect that power be used responsibly.

random spells trololol is not using that power responsibly.

Quote from: Lord Mistborn;578502ahem


This was the post I was responding to originally.

The DM has the power in theory to strip clerics and paladins of their stuff at any time, The players expect that power be used responsibly.

random spells trololol is not using that power responsibly.

Where did he say the DM should just randomly remove spells for no reason?  Or is this another example of you creating a strawman?  Wait, you never do those...

Quote from: Lord Mistborn;578496When the chart next to my class and level says I get x spells of y level. I expect x spells of y level. I expect the DM not to fuck with my character sheet just because the game says he can.

But that was as much a part of thd game as the spell chart. Your spells come from your god or his lesser servants and so the gm is expected to grant spell requests with that in mind. It actually adds a good deal of flavor to the game. It isn't about being a jerk to the player, it is about the way divine casting is meant to function in the game. The way we always played is the player would right down the spells he was praying for and the gm would hand him a list back. Sometimes it had all of what you asked for, sometimes you got things you asked but things you didn't as well, sometimes the entire list was stuff you hadnt asked for at all. The gm didn't just do it "because". There was supposed to be a reason. Some GMs made the decision on balance issues, some on setting (i.e. What would the god give this particular cleric based on his receng behavior). Personally i like this approach a lot.

Yeah, this was never really useful and for the last 4 thousand posts it's been retarded.

Go find somewhere else to rub alpha-male bumps.

Closed.

Quote from: Lord Mistborn;577161Civility Libertad don't you know where you are.

Since this thread has invaded my totally legit PF thread Imma repost the points I've made that are more D&D universal.

-You're playing the numbers game while casters transcend the numbers.

This only matters if a) the fighter's numbers don't constitute a significant advantage over the other classes (which you can certainly argue in 3.x but is much harder to argue in any older edition).

Quote-You're losing the numbers game against the monsters. Monsters in most editions of D&D are the clear superiors with respect to what fighter classes can do. This is especially noticeable in 3e/3.5/PF due to CR and how monsters a built.

Again, not my experience in old-school D&D.

Quote-The fundamental resource in D&D is the spell.

The statement itself makes some sense, in that spells are a "limited resource" and in most versions of D&D what a fighter or rogue do are not limited resources, they can do them all the time.
However, your conclusions you noted with this point are pretty silly in old-school D&D.  Particularly at lower-levels, a party that has more wizards than fighters is pretty screwed.  Well into mid-levels, a rogue or fighter is more important to the survival of the PC group than a wizard; and even into high levels, a cleric is more absolutely essential to the party than a wizard.
Again, in great part your arguments are far more viable in 3.x; because of the ways they removed certain niche protections of fighters and rogues (suddenly, anyone can try to find or disarm traps in theory, and everyone can become a pretty decent fighter by a certain level), while simultaneously removing a lot of the features that limited wizards or clerics (chances to learn spells, lower numbers of spells per day, chances of spell failure, the difficulty in constructing magic items).  So this threw the game out of whack.

Quote-The real threat to the fighter's viability as a class is not the wizard but the cleric. For the fighter's entire career the cleric will never be more that 1-2 spells from matching him and 3 spells from exceeding him

In old-school D&D, the cleric is a class that fights pretty well but doesn't match a fighter, and has some very useful spells but has to take up a lot of his spell slots to healing.

In closing, I would point you to Lamentations of the Flame Princess, which very handily resolves the vast bulk of your issues in how it changes both fighters and spellcasters.

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