The whole "problem" is bullshit.

In AD&D a 10th level magic user can drop 4 or 5 fireball spells (assuming they can use those based on the environment or have them memorized).  So we have our 10th level fireball.  10d6.  Average: 30 points.  Save for half: 15.

And the lucky mage can do that 5 times a day.  

Meanwhile, the 10th level fighter who has, say, a 17 strength and a +3 longsword is doing 13 points of damage, average 6.  GASP.  ONLY HALF WHAT THE MAGIC USER WHY THAT'S DEPROTAGONIZING OF A GYGAXIAN LEVEL OF FUCKERY.  Except when that fireball-throwing is over, the fighter can draw his sword and do his average 6 damage.  Again.  And again.  And again.  And again.  Oh, right, that same fighter is also bringing it twice every other round.  So now the average is up to 9.  Again, and again, and again.  Meanwhile the "all-mighty magic-user" is back to lobbing bottles of burning oil.

Dig it.

Quote from: FrankTrollman;549507Because at high level, the encounter is this:
*snip image*

-Frank

I never had Apache helicopters in my AD&D encounters.

Quote from: FrankTrollman;549800I am talking about a "Great Wyrm", just as Mike Mearls was in the 5e preview piece I linked to earlier. Why these yahoos are resorting to quoting stats off an "Ancient Dragon" (who is not, by the way, a high level monster in AD&D) is completely beyond me.
 
Since we were talking about high level encounters, insisting on ranting about a White Dragon writeup with only 5-7 hit dice is pretty obviously disingenuous. I mentioned an Ettin earlier, but I wasn't such a lying sack of shit as to try to shell game it in as a "high level encounter", it's a fucking Ettin! I introduced it as a low-mid-level monster, because that is what it is and always has been.
 
Dragons in various editions have been variously powerful. The AD&D ones are ones you are expected to fight when you're around 9th level. This is obviously not what it makes sense to talk about when we talk about high level dragon encounters. If we were talking about AD&D and high level dragon encounters, we'd need to bring up dragons from AD&D that were actually high level encounters. I don't know, Shadow Dragons or something.
 
-Frank

Well I did use Otiluke's Resilient Sphere or whatever it was once, to suffocate the big dragon down to the ground and the Fighters pulverized it from there. This was a Epic level 3.5e one off though and wasn't the usual type of games/campaigns I was in involved in.

Quote from: FrankTrollman;549745There it is. The sheer obliviousness of this post is amazing. Apparently OHT is some sort of Mary Tzu who always comes up with tactics so brilliant that he doesn't need to actually have any relevant skills to be able to defeat the most difficult challenges. Either that or he relies so heavily on the DM coddling him that he doesn't even notice how ridiculous it is that he keeps getting patronized and told that he "wins" over and over again no matter how objectively outclassed he is in whatever situation he finds himself.

Like a character in a poorly written fantasy novel, OHT's fighter will always come out on top because the author (DM) is just going to let whatever hare-brained scheme he comes up with succeed. Even if that plan is essentially ridiculous, there will at the very least be some sort of last minute deus ex machina.

Against that kind of impervious anti-logic, discussion is basically impossible. OHT will always succeed because of generous DMing, so he considers actual abilities on the part of his character superfluous. From the standpoint of his game, he's actually right. His character could indeed succeed just as well if his character sheet was just a Münchausen writeup (name, title, underline) and his background was just a rant about how awesome his mustache was. Of course, from the standpoint of the game, or indeed anyone else's game where the DM actually asks your character to have abilities you want to use, that is a wall of horse shit so high it cannot even be climbed
-Frank

Welcome to D&D, chummer.

Want to know the best part of my "mother-may-I" playstyle? When I'm not at the table I get to stop giving a shit about D&D and go do something else.

That means I'm out pub crawling, or at band practice, or at trivia, or playing racquetball, or out at a show, or trying new recipes in my kitchen, or at home finding inventive ways to fuck my girlfriend...while the guys who play the game like they're building a fucking magic deck are locked in a miasmic basement and furiously jacking off over a pile of sourcebooks and empty Zyprexa bottles in an attempt to overcome every challenge during the character generation phase.

Why the fuck are you even here? You're not a gamer. You're a petty, soulless bureaucrat who just wants to turn the game into a rules mastery arms race, so you can bully everyone else at the table with your super autism theorywank powers. Fuck you and all your aspie basement case friends.

Here's the thing about D&D and other RPG's...they are not about the rules. They aren't. We know this is true because the rules for absolutely every roleplaying game ever have largely been utter shit that doesn't work. No one actually knows how to make a game, because all attempts thus far have resulted in either a jumbled mess that doesn't do what it's goddamned supposed to, or a carefully designed piece of math that is about as much fun to play at the table as a spreadsheet. As it turns out, the only things anyone really ever NEEDS to play a game is a resolution mechanic, friends and imagination.

Of course all this is utter anathema to you, Frank. Your version of D&D doesn't actually involve other people. Your version of D&D is all about you, and about swinging around the biggest rules dick in the room...and nuisances like GM's and other players only get in the way. Besides, you're too intellectually impotent to make decisions in the game without some sort of procedure to guide you. In the end, you want a game where all of the power is in the rules, which are themselves an immutable source code that automates all functions of the game. In other words...not a roleplaying game at all...but the shittiest, most low tech videogame ever.

So I have to ask again...what the fuck are you doing here? This is a forum for gamers...and you're not a gamer. You're a fidgety autist whose hobbies are theorycrafting and annoying others with your incessant rules fappery. I thought you were a doctor or something anyway...so go turn your pedantry toward curing something and let those of us who still have imaginations left actually discuss the game.

Quote from: Declan MacManus;549822Welcome to D&D, chummer.

Want to know the best part of my "mother-may-I" playstyle? When I'm not at the table I get to stop giving a shit about D&D and go do something else.

That means I'm out pub crawling, or at band practice, or at trivia, or playing racquetball, or out at a show, or trying new recipes in my kitchen, or at home finding inventive ways to fuck my girlfriend...while the guys who play the game like they're building a fucking magic deck are locked in a miasmic basement and furiously jacking off over a pile of sourcebooks and empty Zyprexa bottles in an attempt to overcome every challenge during the character generation phase.

Why the fuck are you even here? You're not a gamer. You're a petty, soulless bureaucrat who just wants to turn the game into a rules mastery arms race, so you can bully everyone else at the table with your super autism theorycrafting powers. Fuck you and all your aspie basement case friends.

Here's the thing about D&D and other RPG's. They are not about the rules. They aren't. We know this is true because the rules for absolutely every roleplaying game ever have largely been utter shit that doesn't work. No one actually knows how to make a game, because all attempts thus far have resulted in either a jumbled mess that doesn't do what it's goddamned supposed to, or a carefully designed piece of math that is about as much fun to play at the table as a spreadsheet. As it turns out, the only thing one really needs to play a game is a resolution mechanic, friends and imagination.

Of course all this is utter anathema to you, Frank. Your version of D&D doesn't actually involve other people. Your version of D&D is all about you, and about swinging around the biggest rules dick in the room...and nuisances like GM's and other players only get in the way. besides, you're too intellectually impotent to make decisions in the game without some sort of procedure to guide you. In the end, you want a game where all of the power is in the rules, which are themselves an immutable source code that automates all functions of the game. In other words...not a roleplayign game at all...but the shittiest, most low tech videogame ever.

So I have to ask again...what the fuck are you doing here? This is a forum for gamers...and you're not a gamer. You're a fidgety autist whose hobbies are theorycrafting and annoying others with your incessantly rules fappery. I thought you were a doctor or something anyway...so go turn your pedantry toward curing something and let those of us who still have imaginations left actually discuss the game.

The best post I've seen on this website in a long time.  It's a bit cliche, but it's the only rational response to Trollman's nonsense.  

Everyone bookmark this post. In the future, when you feel tempted to respond to Trollman's bullshit, just click this bookmark, and remind yourself of why it's a completely fucking futile exercise that drags down the entire forum by indulging it.

The arguement seems to have debased into 'but the stuff I fought when I played old editions was different tot eh stuff you fought.'

Ben at al are a correct that a group of 5th level PCs in D&D could easily kill a medium aged dragon or even an older one if they were prepared. Also corredct that over a old school dungeon delve game where resource menagement is key the fighter (providing magical healing is available as hte HP are one of his main resources) will balance out with the Wizard who at 9th level would have a dozen or so spells they could cast and probably a couple of magic items that were MU only.

Frank is right in that if the DM threw a dragon at the Party of 9th -12th level adventurers that was a 15hd flying monstrosity then the fighter's role to affect it without magical help would be very limited. Typicaly this would not be a resource focused game as dragons like that represent the BIG bad that the party tool up to hunt down and take out.

They are different play styles.

I can site an example from actual play.

3 PCs
My 11th level thief
A 9th level Barbarian with ludicrous HP and stats who was allowed to use a magic sword
A MU who had taken a level as a fighter then dual classed to a MU so they could use a sword and had marginally better HP Fighter 2 MU 9

The party were in a castle and under attack by a very large red dragon. the DM thought the dragons in AD&D were crap and that dragons should be hosing villages, so its a 15HD fuck off big red dragon. Now its not important whether that means the 'dragon' is not a real dragon, the point is that the dragon was the High Fantasy threat we were facing.

I had a magic carpet. In our first encounter I flew towards the dragon from above to get suprise and the barbarian and I dropped down on it me using a ring of feather fall to try to get a backstab in the Barbarian onto it's head.
Suffice it to say it fucked the shit out of us but luckily I used a ring of jumping and the carpet to escape and the Barbarian had a fuck of a lot of hit points.

For the next encounter we roused the MU who had been doing reserach in another part of the castle.
The wizard cast Poly self, enlarge, fly and Miror Image on himself and then with the aid of a wand of frost some clever polymorph tricks and finally a lightning bolt took the entire dragon out himself.

Now I agree that after he had done all that he was depleted but ...

The point is that in a High fantasy encounter the 1e/2e Fighter can not complete at high levels with the wizard. Its not just that the wizard has grown tougher its that the wizard has far far far more options and options win powerful combats.

Now if you don't want to do High fantasy with 15hd dragons then fine. If you want to stick to the dungeon/widerness explore paradigm then I think its true the MU can make a big splash at high level but can't sustain it for a whole adventuring day like the fighter can but at high level often the type of adventure changes and from my experience being able to let off all your fire works at one go is a more useful as sustained resource management is a less common play style at named level.

Anyone that says all a 9th level magic user can do is let off 5 fireballs so they are rubbish has a huge lack of imagination. A clevel 9th level MU can defeat a fighter of the same level with a single first level charm person or a phantasmal force or for the big guns a hold person and a cloudkill.

Now I have no problem with that its not an issue in another encounter the Wizard enlarged the barbarian and he ploughed into a whole bunch of fire giants.
But the tactical benefit of having a lot of options, which is what magic gives you, cannot be over estimated.

By the way my thief had another most excellent plan to defeat the dragon had the wizard been fried to a crisp. We had found a magical mirror and when you looked upon it you rolled under your Wis or stared marvelling at your reflection until the mirror was covered up. Whilst the barbarian was trying to recover from the lost hit points and the wizard was flying out to tackle the dragon I took my carpet to go and fetch the mirror. The plan being to trap the dragon with the object. However I spent the entire fight staring at my own reflection ... which I knew was a risk but i also knew was a fuck of a long way away from the dragon so ......

BTW I just checked. My current fighter character has an INT of 13, which is not that far off the Red Dragon with his 15-16 INT.

Quote from: Benoist;549826BTW I just checked. My current fighter character has an INT of 13, which is not that far off the Red Dragon with his 15-16 INT.

But Ben is that really important?

The question isn't really can a party outsmart an AD&D dragon if played by the book because I think Frank's argument isn't about whether dragons are geniuses or supra-geniuses or even if they have 9hd or 15 hd.

The argument realy is about what could a fighter do against an opponent that was as tough as the one he posts in that picture.
Does a fighter have the tools to compete on a stage with that sort of critter in that sort of game?

Now if I end up playing a fighter in a game like that then I treat the high level wizard like a tool I can use. Often to me the High Level Wizard is just another weapon I, as the fighter and so tactical lead of the combat, can use to defeat the opponent.
That however might well be more about the meta-game level than any mechanical considerations.

Outside of oil flasks and a torch, my other favorite area effect toy was sacks of flour and a torch. That and it's amazing how much you can clear out a dungeon lair with a proper smokey fire at a cave entrance. Oh, and ten foot poles for the win!

(This discussion reminds me when someone asked what was the most powerful weapon in Diablo II. I replied that beyond the context of Diablo II's video game limitations, the Teleport Scroll was the most powerful weapon. Having a village  use Teleport scrolls (and never going back into their own portal, which closes it) and any disposable bomb (Fulminating or Poison Gas potions) they could constantly strafe any room with area effect death and then run back to safety of the town's healer.

It was either a hilarious or unwelcome revelation to people. But it also became a useful litmus test for who'd do well with my style of table top role playing. There's either something liberating -- or power fantasy deflating -- about having mundane tools being so effective.)

Quote from: jibbajibba;549830The argument realy is about what could a fighter do against an opponent that was as tough as the one he posts in that picture.
Does a fighter have the tools to compete on a stage with that sort of critter in that sort of game?

Since when did cover and ranged weapons disappear from the game? I see a castle in the pic, is all its masonry made of marshmallows? Was there an edition where all ranged weapons stop at 79 feet? If fighters could shoot down faster birds in flight, like when they normally go hunting, why should a massive dragon moving at human strolling speed be harder? What sort of gimped edition of AD&D are we talking about here?

It may take some time, but a fighter can lay out a lot of missile fire in a battle, while moving too. And he/she can shoot for so many more times greater than a wizard's slots spell slots. Where is this helpless fighter image coming from?

Quote from: Opaopajr;549839Since when did cover and ranged weapons disappear from the game? I see a castle in the pic, is all its masonry made of marshmallows? Was there an edition where all ranged weapons stop at 79 feet? If fighters could shoot down faster birds in flight, like when they normally go hunting, why should a massive dragon moving at human strolling speed be harder? What sort of gimped edition of AD&D are we talking about here?

It may take some time, but a fighter can lay out a lot of missile fire in a battle, while moving too. And he/she can shoot for so many more times greater than a wizard's slots spell slots. Where is this helpless fighter image coming from?

Plus, why are the fighters waiting around in town while the dragon approaches? Send those with bows to sneak out of town. Keep one guy in town. Cast Fly on the one guy, who zooms up in the air, attracts the dragon's attention, and then hits it where it hurts: he flies straight towards the dragon's lair. Where the archers should have arrived to set up an ambush.

See now you guys are talking about actually playing a fucking role playing game, something frank knows nothing about. Stop trying to confuse him with this stuff outside the rules he doesn't want to even consider actually exists.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;549808The whole "problem" is bullshit.

In AD&D a 10th level magic user can drop 4 or 5 fireball spells (assuming they can use those based on the environment or have them memorized).  So we have our 10th level fireball.  10d6.  Average: 30 points.  Save for half: 15.

And the lucky mage can do that 5 times a day.  

Meanwhile, the 10th level fighter who has, say, a 17 strength and a +3 longsword is doing 13 points of damage, average 6.  GASP.  ONLY HALF WHAT THE MAGIC USER WHY THAT'S DEPROTAGONIZING OF A GYGAXIAN LEVEL OF FUCKERY.  Except when that fireball-throwing is over, the fighter can draw his sword and do his average 6 damage.  Again.  And again.  And again.  And again.  Oh, right, that same fighter is also bringing it twice every other round.  So now the average is up to 9.  Again, and again, and again.  Meanwhile the "all-mighty magic-user" is back to lobbing bottles of burning oil.

Exactly.  It's like us old-timers have to dust off the books and show these whippersnappers how to play.

QuoteDig it.

Excuse me, stewardess, I speak 'jive'.

Quote from: J Arcane;549823The best post I've seen on this website in a long time.  It's a bit cliche, but it's the only rational response to Trollman's nonsense.  

Everyone bookmark this post. In the future, when you feel tempted to respond to Trollman's bullshit, just click this bookmark, and remind yourself of why it's a completely fucking futile exercise that drags down the entire forum by indulging it.

I agree and I did bookmark it to help myself remember why I hate theorywank and spherical cows.

Quote from: jibbajibba;549830The argument realy is about what could a fighter do against an opponent that was as tough as the one he posts in that picture.
Does a fighter have the tools to compete on a stage with that sort of critter in that sort of game?
.

I shall repeat, if in that scenario?