Quote from: Nicephorus;371109Here's a good way to get the feel of pulp: think of the ways that Star Wars is different from 2001.

Only one of them totally blows your mind when watched stoned?  I tease.  I appreciate everyone's contribution so far.  It is helpful.

I think that the James Bond stories, written mainly in the 1950's, had a certain pulp sensibility, without necessarily being pulp themselves. They harked back to the British 'Clubland heroes' of the inter-war years - Hannay, Bulldog Drummond, etc - and Bond shared some of their more unpleasant attitudes.

The Bond films though...well, in Brosnan's last outing didn't he drive an invisible car? That's pretty high-end pulp!

And that's the thing - pulp covers a lot of ground - from the gritty Continental Op to Doc Savage. As someone said, you know it when you see it. Is it a genre? God knows - I enjoy pulp games though!

From a roleplaying perspective I think it's unfortunate that Spirit of the Century seems to be the most popular pulp game. Not that I've anything against the game particularly - but it does set the pulp dial to 11 as a default and so many gamers seem to think that a game isn't a pulp game without talking gorillas and PCs that are superheroes in disguise. White Wolf's Adventure! was at least pretty upfront about the fact that 2 out of 3 PC types were low-powered supers.

Fine if that's your thing (and talking gorillas are definitely pulp) but lower-powered crimebusters are pulp too. And look at the common statement on the boards about Hollow Earth Expeditions - "The characters are too weak!" HEX has feeding Nazis to dinosaurs but the game is seen as lacking by some gamers, as the PCs aren't festooned with the dreaded 'cool powers'.

And a great game like Two Fisted Tales that effortlessly scales from private dicks walking those mean streets to talking gorillas piloting airships? That hardly gets a mention.

Quote from: Gruntfuttock;371220And a great game like Two Fisted Tales that effortlessly scales from private dicks walking those mean streets to talking gorillas piloting airships? That hardly gets a mention.

Except around here, where it is praised to the skies, and deservedly so!

-clash

Quote from: flyingmice;371223Except around here, where it is praised to the skies, and deservedly so!

-clash

Amen Brother!

I didn't mean to imply that there can't be low-powered, gritty noir pulp -- by all means! I just prefer the "turned up to 11" stuff.

And yes chainmail bras are fine in a pinch. Haha, pinch. Oh, the wit.

Quote from: Nicephorus;371038Pulp is neither high fantasy, hard SF, nor a detailed realistic account.  It's mainly an American creation though there was also a fair amount of European pulp and especially pre-pulp (H.R. Haggard and Victor Hugo were definite influences).  Instead of following fantasy traditions along the lines King Arthur with motivations determined by themes and a certain fatalism, pulp grew out of more homespun folk tales with characters driven byidentifiable personalities and normal desires.  Conan has more in common with Paul Bunyan than Sir Galahad.  I think a key part of Pulp's popularity was the spread of literacy so that reading was for working stiffs as well as academics; this new audience brought new sensibilities.

Before it evolved into its own genre with its own memes, super heroes started with a definite pulp flavor.  Early Batman had more in common with the Spirit than it does with current comics.  

Most of the original pulp took place between 1920 and WWII because that was when it was written - much of the action was written in the present for the author.  I don't think there is anything special about this time for a pulp setting.  You could have a pulp setting on a college campus in the 80s or in ancient Rome.  

It seems to me that this is looking at a specific subset of pulp fiction - i.e. "gamer pulp" - rather than the broader picture of what pulp was to the wider world.  Pulp magazines published stories in a wide variety of genre.  At the time gritty westerns and spicy romances were just as central to pulp magazines as over-the-top action/adventure like The Shadow or Doc Savage.  From the Wikipedia article on pulp magazines, say:

QuotePulp magazines often contained a wide variety of genre fiction, including, but not limited to, fantasy/sword and sorcery, gangster, detective/mystery, science fiction, adventure, westerns (also see Dime Western), war, sports, railroad, romance, horror/occult (including "weird menace"), "spicy/saucy" (soft porn), and Série Noire (French crime mystery). The American Old West was a mainstay genre of early turn of the century novels as well as later pulp magazines, and lasted longest of all the traditional pulps.

I like pulp action/adventure games, but I dislike it when then lens of gaming mixes up what a real creative tradition is about.  I have similar issues with use of the term "cinematic" - which means something vastly different when you talk to people who do acting or film as opposed to gamers.  

There's pulp fiction, and then there's more typically game-adapted pulp fiction.  Both can be great, but I prefer to make the distinction.

Quote from: Insufficient Metal;371304I didn't mean to imply that there can't be low-powered, gritty noir pulp -- by all means! I just prefer the "turned up to 11" stuff.

And yes chainmail bras are fine in a pinch. Haha, pinch. Oh, the wit.

This post brushes up against discussing nipples. Therefore, this post is porn.

Quote from: Aos;371306This post brushes up against discussing nipples. Therefore, this post is porn.

I'll make sure it's official:

Quotethink of the ways that Star Wars is different from 2001

Except Star Wars has more to do with old Republic serials... or at least it did at first (later it had more to do with daytime soap operas and cat litter).
I think a better term than either 'cinematic' or 'pulp' would be 'Hollywood'... not that it's more accurate but I think it carries the meaning better.

Quote from: Simlasa;371315Except Star Wars has more to do with old Republic serials... or at least it did at first (later it had more to do with daytime soap operas and cat litter).
I think a better term than either 'cinematic' or 'pulp' would be 'Hollywood'... not that it's more accurate but I think it carries the meaning better.

I think Nicephorus provided a meaningful and useful comparison.  And I dig.  Problem is, everyone thinks they have a special label they would apply to Star Wars.

Me too, for that matter.  To me, Star Wars is actually High Fantasy (gasp!) wearing a Sci-Fi skin.  

Anyway, I think you're both (Nicephorus, Simlasa) right.  If I can be sold bold, I will pull a statement out of what I digest from these posts: Pulp isn't so much a genre as it is an attitude or tone.  Yes/No?

Quote from: winkingbishop;371318Pulp isn't so much a genre as it is an attitude or tone.  Yes/No?

Certainly not a genre IMO... but yeah, to gamers I suppose it's a kind of 'tone' or 'flavor'... 'gonzo' as opposed to 'gritty'.

Quote from: Gruntfuttock;371220I think that the James Bond stories, written mainly in the 1950's, had a certain pulp sensibility, without necessarily being pulp themselves. They harked back to the British 'Clubland heroes' of the inter-war years - Hannay, Bulldog Drummond, etc - and Bond shared some of their more unpleasant attitudes.

The Bond films though...well, in Brosnan's last outing didn't he drive an invisible car? That's pretty high-end pulp!

And that's the thing - pulp covers a lot of ground - from the gritty Continental Op to Doc Savage. As someone said, you know it when you see it. Is it a genre? God knows - I enjoy pulp games though!

From a roleplaying perspective I think it's unfortunate that Spirit of the Century seems to be the most popular pulp game. Not that I've anything against the game particularly - but it does set the pulp dial to 11 as a default and so many gamers seem to think that a game isn't a pulp game without talking gorillas and PCs that are superheroes in disguise. White Wolf's Adventure! was at least pretty upfront about the fact that 2 out of 3 PC types were low-powered supers.

Fine if that's your thing (and talking gorillas are definitely pulp) but lower-powered crimebusters are pulp too. And look at the common statement on the boards about Hollow Earth Expeditions - "The characters are too weak!" HEX has feeding Nazis to dinosaurs but the game is seen as lacking by some gamers, as the PCs aren't festooned with the dreaded 'cool powers'.

And a great game like Two Fisted Tales that effortlessly scales from private dicks walking those mean streets to talking gorillas piloting airships? That hardly gets a mention.

Its appalling that 2FT is not considered, hands down, the best Pulp RPG ever made.

RPGPundit

Quote from: jhkim;371305It seems to me that this is looking at a specific subset of pulp fiction - i.e. "gamer pulp" - rather than the broader picture of what pulp was to the wider world.  Pulp magazines published stories in a wide variety of genre.  At the time gritty westerns and spicy romances were just as central to pulp magazines as over-the-top action/adventure like The Shadow or Doc Savage.  From the Wikipedia article on pulp magazines, say:

It's tough say much that applies to a broad spectrum such a pulp or anime.  But most of what I said applies equally to the small amount of old western and boxing stories that I've read.  There is neither obsessive realism or attempts at high literature.  The main characters are better than the average person but not unbelievably so, often with clear flaws as well.  

Applied to gaming, I think it's good let players have options that make them rise above the common schmoe but not so above that mundane threats no longer bother them.  If your character isn't worried about a gun pointed at their chest, then it's a super hero game.

Quote from: Nicephorus;371434It's tough say much that applies to a broad spectrum such a pulp or anime.  But most of what I said applies equally to the small amount of old western and boxing stories that I've read.  There is neither obsessive realism or attempts at high literature.  The main characters are better than the average person but not unbelievably so, often with clear flaws as well.

Agreed - my main point was just emphasizing that pulp is a broad spectrum as you said.  "Pulp magazine story" as a category is similar to "network television show" or perhaps even "traditional tabletop role-playing game."  There are common tropes and standards for television, and it has some common attitude, but it's definitely not a genre.  

Quote from: Nicephorus;371434Applied to gaming, I think it's good let players have options that make them rise above the common schmoe but not so above that mundane threats no longer bother them.  If your character isn't worried about a gun pointed at their chest, then it's a super hero game.

Agreed.  This is something of a problem I have with Spirit of the Century.  I just started an SotC game.  There aren't any superpowers per se, and we're struggling with many tasks, but we aren't really afraid of mundane threats.

Quote from: jhkim;371446This is something of a problem I have with Spirit of the Century.  I just started an SotC game.  There aren't any superpowers per se, and we're struggling with many tasks, but we aren't really afraid of mundane threats.

I see this as a problem with gaming pulp as a whole.  Pulp=way over the top. A lot of people think Conan is pulp, yet Conan really has little in common with Flash Gordon, Doc Savage and The Shadow.  Day After Ragnarok, for example, was referred to as Conan:1948.  Not the Conan I read.