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Author Topic: Will we look back, and view the 5.0 to One D&D transition.....  (Read 2733 times)

Jam The MF

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Will we look back, and view the 5.0 to One D&D transition.....
« on: September 30, 2022, 11:06:01 PM »
With similar angst, as to how we look back and view the 3.0 to 3.5 transition? 

It's just more stuff for the game you already own, and not really compatible?

Perhaps 5.0 is the true spiritual successor to 3.0?
Let the Dice, Decide the Outcome.  Accept the Results.

Krugus

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Re: Will we look back, and view the 5.0 to One D&D transition.....
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2022, 11:56:14 PM »
I played very little 3.0 through 4.0 was too busy playing other good RPGs like Shadowrun and Earthdawn :)

My son owns the 5.0 books.  I looked through them, but they seemed meh at best, so we played other RPGs instead.
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mightybrain

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Re: Will we look back, and view the 5.0 to One D&D transition.....
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2022, 03:08:14 AM »
I've only ever played 3.5. What changed between 3 and 3.5? Were they very different? I always assumed 3.5 was just errata for 3.

Effete

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Re: Will we look back, and view the 5.0 to One D&D transition.....
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2022, 03:32:07 AM »
With similar angst, as to how we look back and view the 3.0 to 3.5 transition? 

It's just more stuff for the game you already own, and not really compatible?

Perhaps 5.0 is the true spiritual successor to 3.0?

Maybe.
As someone who was playing 3.0 when the shift happened, many of the changes were things we had already homebrewed from spending 2-3 years with the system. Namely, combining skills together so that the less used skills were less of a tax. I remember at the time our group being mostly receptive to the update, but looking back, instead of nerfing the things that were OP, WotC just boosted the things that were "lacking." There definitely was an upward shift in power level, especially with feats.

In that sense, the update from 5e to "5.5" looks to be very similar. The game is shifting from "feats are optional at DM's behest" to "feats are now ways to truely customize your character." I haven't had time to really pour over the new content yet, but a cursary review seems to indicate that there is a further shift in power level. Which is shocking, since 5e had a monster jump in power from 3.5. For example, there's a feat now that lets you burn a hit die to recover HP whenever you want, which used to be an ability exclusive to Fighters. In exchange, it looks like Fighters will be getting huge bonuses to weapon-use (more details on that in the next UA release).

The "backward compatible" terminology is largely a misnomer. The update is a replacement, just like 3.5 was a replacement for 3e. "Backward compatibility" simply means "minimal conversion." If you had an old 3e adventure with an NPC using Read Lips, you had to convert that to Spot in 3.5. Thing is, you could run that same exact adventure in 5e; you just need to convert more things. Anyone that knows both systems to any reasonable degree can do this on the fly with no problem. But if you never played 3.0 and saw "make a Read Lips check," you'd probably be at a loss translating that to 3.5. It STILL requires some knowledge of the earlier system to convert things. "Compatibility" is an illusion; it's really just "minimal conversion."
« Last Edit: October 01, 2022, 03:41:45 AM by Effete »

Effete

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Re: Will we look back, and view the 5.0 to One D&D transition.....
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2022, 03:35:23 AM »
I've only ever played 3.5. What changed between 3 and 3.5? Were they very different? I always assumed 3.5 was just errata for 3.

First day on the internet?

Literally the first result on a search.
https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/69772/what-are-the-major-differences-between-dd-3-0-and-dd-3-5

mightybrain

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Re: Will we look back, and view the 5.0 to One D&D transition.....
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2022, 04:10:40 AM »
I stopped playing after 2e and didn't start again until 4e. I missed 3 entirely. Later, I went back and played a 3.5 game with a group that refused to play 4e.

mightybrain

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Re: Will we look back, and view the 5.0 to One D&D transition.....
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2022, 04:21:48 AM »
I've only ever played 3.5. What changed between 3 and 3.5? Were they very different? I always assumed 3.5 was just errata for 3.
https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/69772/what-are-the-major-differences-between-dd-3-0-and-dd-3-5

A long list of minor / cosmetic changes.

World_Warrior

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Re: Will we look back, and view the 5.0 to One D&D transition.....
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2022, 05:16:57 AM »
With similar angst, as to how we look back and view the 3.0 to 3.5 transition? 

It's just more stuff for the game you already own, and not really compatible?

Perhaps 5.0 is the true spiritual successor to 3.0?
In that sense, the update from 5e to "5.5" looks to be very similar. The game is shifting from "feats are optional at DM's behest" to "feats are now ways to truely customize your character." I haven't had time to really pour over the new content yet, but a cursary review seems to indicate that there is a further shift in power level. Which is shocking, since 5e had a monster jump in power from 3.5. For example, there's a feat now that lets you burn a hit die to recover HP whenever you want, which used to be an ability exclusive to Fighters. In exchange, it looks like Fighters will be getting huge bonuses to weapon-use (more details on that in the next UA release).

Personally, only glanced through the playtest documents. But it's still "optional" for Feats. Now, the "Ability Score Improvement" is a Feat as well, so if you level up and don't want to use Feats, you just pick the ASI feat. Some class abilities are now feats as well, or converted to spells. If anything, it's reminding me of 4th edition, how everything was a feat or spell. WOTC even mentioned that some magic items, etc will now have group keywords... again, more 4th edition stuff.

Not really a fan of D&D anymore. Rather just stick to the OSR.

Jam The MF

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Re: Will we look back, and view the 5.0 to One D&D transition.....
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2022, 05:32:31 AM »
I stopped playing after 2e and didn't start again until 4e. I missed 3 entirely. Later, I went back and played a 3.5 game with a group that refused to play 4e.

So, how did you like it?
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Jam The MF

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Re: Will we look back, and view the 5.0 to One D&D transition.....
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2022, 05:43:09 AM »
I've only ever played 3.5. What changed between 3 and 3.5? Were they very different? I always assumed 3.5 was just errata for 3.

D&D 3.0 was written by people with 2nd Edition AD&D backgrounds, play styles, and assumptions.  New players, didn't bring all of that into their gaming.  Reading every single rule in the books, and power gaming, became the hot new way to play D&D. 

3.0 was exploited by players, as written.  3 years later, many rules and many books got a fresh coat of paint.  The page count increased in all 3 core books, for starters.  Even more rules to play the same game people had just purchased.  It didn't make the game easier.  It added to the rules at the table.
Let the Dice, Decide the Outcome.  Accept the Results.

mightybrain

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Re: Will we look back, and view the 5.0 to One D&D transition.....
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2022, 07:05:34 AM »
I stopped playing after 2e and didn't start again until 4e. I missed 3 entirely. Later, I went back and played a 3.5 game with a group that refused to play 4e.

So, how did you like it?

It was fine. We played it the same way we've played every edition. We weren't playing "optimized" characters so I guess we wouldn't even have noticed any differences. We usually drop rules that get it the way and the rest is just RP same as it always was.

VisionStorm

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Re: Will we look back, and view the 5.0 to One D&D transition.....
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2022, 09:33:52 AM »
I've been liking most of the changes in the two UA documents released so far. I had a lot of hangups about the rationale for getting rid of racial ability modifiers at first, but once I tried to look at what they were doing with an open mind and realized that those were only minor changes that you could effectively turn back anyways by using custom backgrounds to assign ASIs based on the old race modifiers if you wanted to, and that mechanically this approach was preferable as well, I was able to get over it. And a lot of the other changes were more to my taste, though, I have mixed feelings about some and I'm not entirely sold on some of the feats in the most recent document.

I prefer the consolidation of spell lists into just three groups, because it minimizes bookkeeping and I always felt that class specific lists were largely arbitrary anyway. And specific classes may still get access to some select spells from other lists, and/or have access gated by schools instead (Bards, for example, now get access to just Divination, Enchantment, Illusion and Transmutation spells, plus a few healing/restoration spells from the Divine list), so there's still some degree of distinctiveness between spellcasting classes, they just don't over complicate spell organization to achieve it.

I also like how everyone gets a feat as part of their Background now, which is something I've been thinking about doing anyways—now it's just official. I also like the feats covered in the Character Origins document, but I'm a bit iffy about the ones in the Expert classes document. The expert feats just seem arbitrarily gated to level 4 for no apparent reason other than to complicated feat access. I can sorta understand them gating Epic Boons to level 20 (they're supposed to be "epic" and are a bit over the top), but there's zero reason to gate any of the other stuff to level 4, that I can think of at least.

I also hate what they did to Dual Wielder. They effectively nerfed it by getting rid of the wimpy +1 to AC, and you're no longer able to use a weapon without the "light" property in each hand—the one in your off-hand HAS to be light now, cuz wielding a heavier weapon in each hand is apparently an impossible feat, I'm somehow able to pull off in real life (not that it's optimal, but it definitely is doable). You now get a +1 to Strength or Dexterity instead, which is the laziest workaround for handling weak feats I've always hated about 5e. It's like they have no clue WTF to do with dual wielding, so they had to make it worse than it already was. Meanwhile Great Weapon Masters now get a +1 to Strength on top of getting to keep their old Cleave ability, and also get to add their Proficiency Bonus to one attack per round without needing to take a penalty anymore.

There's probably other stuff I like or don't like, but that's what comes off the top of my head.

Armchair Gamer

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Re: Will we look back, and view the 5.0 to One D&D transition.....
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2022, 10:04:04 AM »
Part of the issue with 3.5, which I believe took even the developers by surprise, was that the changes were minor, but wound up making a lot of characters and monsters 'illegal' by the new rules. And the game's culture had developed over the 3E era so that rules-legal was a much bigger deal than it had been at any point since the days of 1st Edition AD&D and the disputes over what was 'official.'

I'm not nearly familiar enough with 5E culture to know if that will make a difference in the present environment.

jeff37923

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Re: Will we look back, and view the 5.0 to One D&D transition.....
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2022, 11:34:54 AM »
....and not care because 4.0 convinced me that WotC had nothing but contempt for their customers.
"Meh."

FingerRod

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Re: Will we look back, and view the 5.0 to One D&D transition.....
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2022, 02:45:51 PM »
…as one with very little change, further degradation of art quality, and yet wildly successful.