SPECIAL NOTICE
Malicious code was found on the site, which has been removed, but would have been able to access files and the database, revealing email addresses, posts, and encoded passwords (which would need to be decoded). However, there is no direct evidence that any such activity occurred. REGARDLESS, BE SURE TO CHANGE YOUR PASSWORDS. And as is good practice, remember to never use the same password on more than one site. While performing housekeeping, we also decided to upgrade the forums.
This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion, sockpuppeting (using multiple and/or bogus accounts), disrupting topics without contributing to them, and posting images that could get someone fired in the workplace (an external link is OK, but clearly mark it as Not Safe For Work, or NSFW). If you receive a warning, please take it seriously and either move on to another topic or steer the discussion back to its original RPG-related theme.

Elementals & Economics: References for real historical economics?

Started by Shrieking Banshee, January 25, 2021, 05:02:16 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

Shrieking Banshee

I'm planning on a re-write of existing D&D 3e economics and magic item rules, for which Id like references to real history just for inspiration. I don't want to make a hyper-realistic economy just something that feels more real to me.

Anybody knows good reference material for knowing wages, and costs of living, and materials over the centuries?

Marchand

The Magical Society books get good feedback. I have the Silk Road one, which is great. A little expensive though.

The Bank of England has a database available from its website with data on English food prices and wages back to the middle ages.
"If the English surrender, it'll be a long war!"
- Scottish soldier on the beach at Dunkirk

GameDaddy

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 25, 2021, 05:02:16 AM
I'm planning on a re-write of existing D&D 3e economics and magic item rules, for which Id like references to real history just for inspiration. I don't want to make a hyper-realistic economy just something that feels more real to me.

Anybody knows good reference material for knowing wages, and costs of living, and materials over the centuries?

I wrote an article on the cost and price of Spanish Cannons, and the economy of Piracy during the Age of Reason, and the revolutionary war from 1450-1860 or so... I will post it here as a reference...

  The year is 1524. I'm in the Spanish territories of the new world, specifically the newly founded city of Granada in what is present day Nicaragua. As the quartermaster for Hernandez De Cordoba I can order and purchase arquebus, you know, one of those splendid matchlock firearms that simply terrify the natives. Each arquebus costs about 60 pesos or 3 Gold Doubloons and 4 pesos (16-1 exchange rate Silver Pesos-Gold Doubloons with 8 silver reales making up a peso, the reales are what are known as pieces of eight, but I digress here) , I place an order for twice as many as Senor De Cordoba thinks we need, but what I really want is at least one 12 or 24 lb Bronze or Brass cannon.

Not counting shipping and portage, how much does one Bronze Cannon cost?


In a time when it takes me thirty minutes or less to find the answer to a question I have,  for three days I have been using the best of my Google Fu to learn an answer to this question, to no avail... The best I was able to do is rough extrapolation based on the prices of firearms and cannons sold during the Spanish Armada of 1588, and the American War of Independence in 1776.

In 1588 I can get a 24lb bronze cannon made for 156 pounds in the Crowns money

Reference: Cannons during the Spanish Armada;
http://www.thepirateking.com/historical/cannon_smoothbores_of_the_later_period.htm

and I can get a musket in 1776 for about 3 pounds 2 pence.

Reference: Minutes of the Provincial Council of Pennsylvania in the Council of Safety, 15 October, 1776
http://books.google.com/books?id=CE0OAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA749&dq=1776+%2B+"muskets"+%2B+quartermaster+%2B+pounds#PPA755,M1

" An order was drawn on Mr. Nesbett in fav'r of Adam Drinkhouse, for 7 Muskets, 21 pounds 10 pence, Delivered to Col. Halley at Flying Camp, to be charged to the Col."

Why was the base called Flying Camp in 1776?, and what is Flying Camp a reference to anyway?

Back to the Spanish Cannon. So the ratio is at least 53-1, but is most likely a bit less since cannons were more expensive to make in 1588 as by 1776 the tools and craft of firearms making had greatly improved resulting in some significantly decreased casting costs, so 50-1 seems like a good ration, and that would make the Bronze Cannon of 1524 cost around:

162 Doubloons and 4 pesos

While this is not necessary accurate, at least its a start. Would anyone happen to have more accurate information on the cost of purchasing a Spanish cannon in the 14th century?

I did learn a few interesting tidbits such as:

Regular wages for troops was almost nonexistent in the 14th Century, most of the time, the troops were paid by taking a share of the loot obtained during battle. I'm sure this led to some interesting campaigns.

One of Christopher Columbus' ships, the Vizcaina has been located
http://www.thepanamanews.com/pn/site/pages/vizcaina.html

The Continental Congress, in 1775 issued Letters of Marque to any privately owned armed vessel. During the course of the war more than 1,700 vessels were chartered as Privateers, and they accounted for the capture or sinking of over 4,200 British ships that carried war supplies or supported the Crowns efforts in the colonies. English vessels that carried no war supplies, and were not escorted by the Crowns warships were not counted, in fact, the seized ships and goods were returned to their original owners if it was discovered that the ship carried trade goods only. This was determined in an International Maritime Court, which was not necessarily strict in its interpretation of what constituted Aiding the Crown in it's war effort.  I'm sure this led to some interesting nautical engagements, and no small amount of politics.

The average American sailor had it tough. During the course of the war there was roughly a 50/50 chance of being killed, injured or captured. If captured, the crew usually had an option to swear loyalty to the Crown and were then impressed to serve as a sailor in the English Navy, for next to no pay, with the hazards of being hunted by fellow privateers to look forward to. I'm certain this also led to some interesting naval engagements as well. Those that refused this new service were transferred to England or prison ships located in New York, and off New Foundland. Here the chances of succumbing to illness, disease or starvation rose considerably more even, although in the latter half of the war many of these sailors received opportunities to be repatriated in prisoner exchanges.

To give you some idea of the success incurred by the privateer fleets of the new world during the War of American Independence, up until the battle of Yorktown all of the Continental ground forces combined had succeeded in capturing 15,000 or so English troops... during the same time frame, the Privateers fleets took more than 16,000 prisoners in naval engagements.

If being a continental sailor was a risky affair, the rewards for success were commensurate, while the average pay for a soldier in the continental army was $9 a month, sailors on successful voyages that brought in a prizes earned significantly more, sometimes more than 100x times that. There are reports of sailors earning more than $1,000 a month for a routine privateer voyage.

While the Continental army languished for a lack of funds and available manpower to fight the war, this branch of service (The Privateers) grew at nearly an exponential rate until 1781. It was only curtailed in its growth by the fact that the British Crown curtailed shipping war supplies to the colonies after Yorktown. Another words, fewer targets were available as the English merchants no longer supported the war on the colonies. In summary, after the war, many American industries, businesses, and educational institutions were founded or supported by American sailors, and the profits of the Privateers.... Yarr.. Mateys!!! 

Some cool links if you need to do your own research:

Privateers and Mariners in the Revolutionary War
http://www.usmm.org/revolution.html

Incredible Story of the Alliance, the only American Continental Frigate in the first commissioned fleet to survive the entire duration of the War. Launched in 1778. Preyed on English shipping in Europe, and sailed in Jone Paul Jone's Squadron for a time...
http://www.hazegray.org/danfs/frigates/alliance.htm



Blackmoor grew from a single Castle to include, first, several adjacent Castles (with the forces of Evil lying just off the edge of the world to an entire Northern Province of the Castle and Crusade Society's Great Kingdom.

~ Dave Arneson

Mishihari

Quote from: GameDaddy on January 26, 2021, 03:31:13 AM
" An order was drawn on Mr. Nesbett in fav'r of Adam Drinkhouse, for 7 Muskets, 21 pounds 10 pence, Delivered to Col. Halley at Flying Camp, to be charged to the Col."

Why was the base called Flying Camp in 1776?, and what is Flying Camp a reference to anyway?

No clue on the economics - I'll just add that I've had similar difficulty trying to research this era as a reference for my own game.

As a wild guess on the quote, I've heard a mobile platoon used to reinforce positions on a line or fortification that are starting to break referred to as a "flying platoon."  Perhaps this is a base for such a group of soldiers?

Bedrockbrendan

It is a little out of date, but I still would recommend Fernand Braudels Civilization and Capitalism, volume 2: the wheels of commerce. All three volumes are useful. But I remember two being quite significant here. You might also find volume 1: The Structures of Everyday Life, useful as well.

Eric Diaz

Chaos Factory Books  - Dark fantasy RPGs and more!

Methods & Madness - my  D&D 5e / Old School / Game design blog.

Two Crows

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 25, 2021, 05:02:16 AM
I'm planning on a re-write of existing D&D 3e economics and magic item rules, for which Id like references to real history just for inspiration. I don't want to make a hyper-realistic economy just something that feels more real to me.

Anybody knows good reference material for knowing wages, and costs of living, and materials over the centuries?

If I knew more what you were trying to do, I could help a bit.

Wages don't exist for most of history, Cost of Living won't directly translate to markets from before the late 18th century and onward, and materials will be directly tied in cost to the location of the purchase (e.g. simple timber in the desert will be prohibitively expensive, yet "free" in a wooded area).

Remember, "tribal" & nomadic groups will actually be using barter while most civilized areas will have a class system that includes the peasant being born into their position (excepting apprenticeships) and effectively tied to the land.  During much of history in many places, low class held parallels to what would be called slavery from the industrial revolution onward.

I'm not sure you really want a "realistic" economy, but if you do, your going to have to select an era and location to mimic.  There won't be a one-stop resource for the entire span of human history and practice.

(For example; the fantasy troupe of being able to walk into a blacksmith's shop and pick out weapons and armor like they are in some sort of Dark Age Sears & Roebuck is absurd, historically speaking).

For most of history wealth is in no way, shape, or form easily portable or transferable.  It's very introduction reduces it's value (see impacts into the 19th century vis-a-vis "gold rush" economies), strangers & non-nobles likely treated as criminals if they carry notable wealth, subject to impulsive taxation from every noble encountered (and they WILL here about a group of wealth vagabonds strolling through their lands), and so forth in manners VERY unfriendly to the method of fantasy gaming most people enjoy.
If I stop replying, it either means I've lost interest in the topic or think further replies are pointless.  I don't need the last word, it's all yours.

Graewulf

I picked this up a couple months ago. I haven't finished reading the whole thing yet, but it has some great information.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/241058/The-Marketplace?term=the+marketplac

Slipshot762

Well the source material I think gets gold coins wrong; saying 50 to the pound, those would be coffee coasters rather than coins...the solidus was something like 4.5 grams or roughly 100 to the pound, so i'd start there.

I can paste some shorthand notes I've yet to decipher that someone posted on another forum long ago; for calculating what a domain can produce and how much of that is self sufficieny vs profit, it might help, if it will all fit, here goes:
QUARRYING & MINING
ALL MINING HAS A MINIMUM COST OF ONE OUNCE OF GOLD (6gp 2sp) PER TON OF ROCK. THIS IS USEFUL BECAUSE IT PUTS A STANDARD VALUE ON BASIC QUARRYSTONE AND SETS A MINIMUM PERCENTAGE ON THE REQUIRED AMOUNT OF A VALUABLE MINERAL PRESENT FOR MINING.
MINE TYPE MONTHLY OUTPUT WORKERS BASIC COST
GRANITE QUARRY 76 TON (1000 CUBIC FT) 5 LABOURERS 76 OZ. GOLD
GRANITE QUARRY(CATEGORY: SMALL, MEDIUMx2, LARGEx3, HUGEx4)
EXTRACTION COST/TON 312.5CP
MONTHLY SUPPLY 76 TONS
WORKERS 5
MONTHLY WORKER WAGE 200CP
GRANITE@QUARRY (1 TON) 350CP
TOTAL QUARRY INCOME 2,850CP


AGRICULTURAL RESOURCES
AGRICULTURAL RESOURCES, WHETHER FOOD, FUEL, OR OTHER. YIELD RATES CAN VARY GREATLY. THE BEST MEDIEVAL FRENCH ESTATES YIELD AROUND 91%-93% WHILE THE BEST ENGLISH ESTATES YIELD AT 83% YET FRANCE HAS A NATIONAL AVERAGE YIELD OF AROUND 35.5%.
BY COMPARRISON, THE VOLCANICLY RICH SOULS OF NEW ZEALAND YIELD EIGHTY BUSHELS OF WHEAT PER ACRE UNDER 1950'S MACHINE FARMING.
Resource Description Yield Limit
FIREWOOD FOREST TIMBER 20,000LB/ACRE
PEATMOSS MINED TO DEPTH OF 15' 1,639,024,391LB/ACRE
SHEEP, GRAZING 3 ACRES/SHEEP. EWES-MILK @180 DAYS / YEAR. ¼ GALLON/DAY,
2&1/2LB WOOL/YEAR
SHEEP, FODDER FED ALL YEAR @12LB MIX BUSHEL/DAY ¼ GALLONS/DAY
14LB WOOL/YEAR
COWS, GRAZING 8 MONTHS MILKING SEASON, 19 ACRES/COW 140 GALLONS/ YEAR
COWS, FODDERFED ALL YEAR @50LB MIXED BUSHEL/DAY 20LB MILK/DAY
PIGS, 32 WKS FODDERFED 870 & 1/2LB GRAINMEAL, 1040LB TURNIP 200LB LIVEWEIGHT
PIGS, 20 WKS FODDERFED 500LB GRAINMEAL 100LB LIVEWEIGHT
BEES, SKEPHIVE STRAW ROPE HIVE (NE) 10LB HONEY, 1LB WAX
BEES, BOXHIVE WOODEN BOX HIVE (NE) 30LB HONEY, 10LB WAX
(AU) 800LB HONEY, 100LB WAX
HENS, FREERANGE @20/ACRE 1 EGG/2 DAYS/HEN
HENS, GRAINFED 1/4LB GRAIN/DAY/HEN 1 EGG/DAY/HEN
FISH 9 MONTHS/YEAR, 1 CRAN = 4 FIRKIN 1 CRAN/DAY 37&1/2 GALLONS OF FISH
SALT 36 GALLONS SEAWATER = 9LB SALT 1/4LB PER 1 GALLON
WHEAT, FALLOW FALLOWGROUND 36 BUSHELS/ACRE
WHEAT, STUBBLE STUBBLE GROWTH@60% FALLOWGROWTH 19 BUSHELS/ ACRE
BARLEY, FALLOW 28 BUSHELS/ACRE
OATS, FALLOW 24 BUSHELS/ACRE
RYE, FALLOW ERGOT@1/10LB/ACRE (MARSHY CONDITIONS) 30 BUSHELS/ACRE
MAIZE, FALLOW 32 BUSHELS/ACRE
MILLET, FALLOW 30 BUSHELS/ACRE
RICE 40 BUSHELS/ACRE
LINSEED PRODUCED FOR FLAX 14 BUSHELS/ACRE
TOMATO 600 BUSHELS/ACRE
HAY 5 TON/ACRE
TURNIP 25 TONS/ACRE
RAPE 5 TONS/ACRE
SUGARCANE 20 TONS/ACRE
TEA 7 HARVESTS/YEAR 1240LB/ACRE
GRAPES 10 ROW VINYARD-ACRE 2&1/2 TON/ACRE


SECONDARY PRODUCE
THE PRIMARY PRODUCE IS CONVERTED THUSLY.
PRODUCE DESCRIPTION
MEAD HONEY(LB)/5 =GALLONS
WINE 85LB-90LB/5 GALLONS
ALE STR: 20LB GRAIN/GALLON, WK: 12LB GRAIN/GALLON
BREAD 73 LOAVES/50LB BUSHEL
FLOUR 0.72 X GRAIN(LB) =FLOUR(LB)
CHEESE MILK X 10.31=MILK (LB), MILK(LB) X (5/43.25) = CHEESE(LB)
LINEN 700LB FLAX= 448LB LINEN COTTAGE INDUSTRY=64%
PRESERVED SAUSAGE 50LB MEAT, 2LB SALT

MEAT FROM LIVESTOCK IS ESTIMATED AT THIS LEVEL.
LIVESTOCK YIELD
SHEEP 50% LIVEWEIGHT=77LB
PIG 70% LIVEWEIGHT(200LB, 100LB)=140LB, 70LB
RED DEER 70% LIVEWEIGHT=220LB
OXEN 70% LIVEWEIGHT=1000LB



RESOURCE REQUIREMENTS
RESOURCES SUPPORT PEOPLE AND ANIMALS, AND ULTIMATELY IT IS THESE TWO GROUPS WHO SUPPORT AGRICULTURE, INDUSTRY AND TRADE AND ALL THE OTHER CRUCIAL COMPONENTS OF OUR CIVILIZATIONS.
Human Requirements Quantity
FUEL (FIREWOOD|PEATMOSS) 10,000LB|28,500LB
GRAIN 587LB
VEGETABLES 365LB
MEAT 365LB
WOOLCOLTH 6LB
LEATHER 5LB
CHEESE 182LB
Animal Requirements QTY
WARHORSE 24%GRAIN|56%CHAFF|20%HAY 18,250LB
WATER
COW/OXEN MIXED BUSHEL 4,727LB

MonsterSlayer

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 25, 2021, 05:02:16 AM
I'm planning on a re-write of existing D&D 3e economics and magic item rules, for which Id like references to real history just for inspiration. I don't want to make a hyper-realistic economy just something that feels more real to me.

Anybody knows good reference material for knowing wages, and costs of living, and materials over the centuries?

You can try this book:

"The Year 1000: What Life Was Like at the Turn of the First Millennium, An Englishman's World"

by Robert Lacey

But I think you are going to find barter and serfdom (of some sort) were much more prevalent through history than wages and costs of living. The one group of people that seemed to get paid consistently were soldiers because it is really hard to barter for having your enemies killed. But a few Popes managed to do that as well in the form of indulgences (Papal pardons for sins in return for services rendered to the Church).



Shrieking Banshee

Quote from: Two Crows on January 27, 2021, 09:10:53 PMIf I knew more what you were trying to do, I could help a bit.

Primarily Im playing Pathfinder (Or D&D 3e). Rag if you want, my players don't want anything else.
The setting is a world JUST about moving into the industrial revolution (late 1700s about). So the point in time where serfdom is less common, and wages would just about start being a thing.

I want to move away from the player facing magic item system and go into a more organic worldbuilding magic item system.
The idea I have is to have 2 categories of magic items. Lesser (magic items that are easy enough to produce and would be seen in common life if rarely) and Greater (the rare and powerful kind of magic stuff made by great heroes and legends that are unique to produce each time).

I'm not going for a 100% matching realism, but I want it to 'feel' psuedo realistic (because I mean the economy will be changed by the introduction of magic).

For instance you likely couldn't sell a '+5' weapon at its exorbitant cost of thousands of gold pieces even if it took that much to make because it would be useless for everybody but a niche crowd. And outside of trade in other 'useless but for a niche crowd' items you would have to lowball the price.

The players are agents of the government (think sort of like constabulary) so id like it to feel logical within that framework of a logical salary and requsition costs.

Charon's Little Helper

#11
Adam Smith's The Wealth of Nations does a good job of touching on such things in the broad strokes. It touches on how population & farming factors into prices.

Ex: Apparently in the late medieval England, beef was cheaper than an equivalent weight of bread, while the opposite was true in the 18th century when he was writing. It goes into there was less population relative to land. Beef required less labor to produce, but much more land. Apparently the same had been true in Scotland not long before, because much of Scotland was sub-par for farming grain, but then trade opened up and beef prices spiked as they were able to export to England.

You could touch on how much land is being taken up by various monsters changes pricing. (Stick to the broad strokes. I enjoy reading about historical economics - but I don't want to play an RPG about it.)

Plus - it's an interesting read if you can get past the language barrier (18th century English).

Lunamancer

The best book, hands down, is Richard Cantillon's Essai. The more recent translation is the better one, since it sought to preserve the economic meaning of Cantillon's work, whereas the older translation sought to preserve the use of language.

Other sources may enhance and supplement, but the reason why this is THE book are:
1) It is the world's first complete economic treatise, pre-dating Adam Smith.
2) It was written in a pre-industrial era.
3) The author was a banker and speculator who actually made vast fortunes on the basis of his theories
4) Despite the times it was written in, it gets more right even in an industrialized world than university economics programs
5) The stuff Adam Smith got right was plagiarized from Cantillon
6) The opening chapters read almost is if they were world building guides for RPGs.
7) The way the reasoning is built up throughout the essay has been extremely useful to me in coming up with quick, back-of-the-envelope calculations for things, even to the point of figuring out costs and revenues for tradesmen businesses

My final two cents, while historical price lists are nice, I do not think they convey an authentic economy. There's no reason to assume that if history was played out again, the identical price lists would have emerged. And there's certainly no good reason to expect those are what the price lists should be in a world where the fantastic comes true. It is important to understand economics as a process. Even if your starting point is a price list that makes no rational sense at all, if you adjust prices as you go, according to how scarce you believe things should be in your world and demand as demonstrated by PCs and NPCs, it will eventually take on something more accurate for your world than any historical price list, and in the process will give your world the feel of having a real, living economy.
That's my two cents anyway. Carry on, crawler.

Tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito.