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Author Topic: Wild Beyond the Witchlight by Web DM--A Different Approach  (Read 4588 times)

Jaeger

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Re: Wild Beyond the Witchlight by Web DM--A Different Approach
« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2021, 04:35:30 PM »
...
Technically they are not new school guys.  They've played old school games and Warhammer Fantasy is one of their favorite campaigns/games ever.  However, they get their money from the 5e cash cow so they need to like it and they need to cover it.

What one played, or wrote product for money back in the day, is an entirely different thing to what one would do if one is given the reigns of power.

Groups and playstyles can wildly vary between groups. Just because I played and enjoyed VtM first edition back in the day, doesn't mean I'd keep it the "same game" if I was put in charge of Vampire 6e and the World of Darkness today.

Crawford for instance has made no secrets of what he wants to do. Winninger did the Underground RPG back in the day when he had his druthers as well. And they are now able to use the twitterati to justify their choices.

One just has to look at the culture in and around WotC since 3e, and you can see D&D's directional drift was inevitable.


...
I'm not disagreeing with you. I was never a fan of the goofy stuff, but I imagine some people might have been then...and possibly now too. I don't feel that every product needs to be made to the tastes of the same "old guard" fans. There's nothing wrong with them trying different things. I don't intend to buy it, but I'm not opposed to it existing.

This is part of what I'm talking about with the 'Directional Drift' of D&D. Its not just about the target audience of the "new D&D", but how the "old guard" fans are now viewed.

An "old guard" fan critiquing a product by saying "WTF is this Shit!?" now = The "old guard" fan is literally Hitler...

IMHO - It has no longer become about whether or not the current D&D team makes the occasional product to the tastes of the same "old guard" fans.

More and more it has become: "old guard" fans?  Go away.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2021, 04:49:39 PM by Jaeger »
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Aglondir

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Re: Wild Beyond the Witchlight by Web DM--A Different Approach
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2021, 04:42:42 PM »
Greetings!

Here, we have a video review of "Wild Beyond the Witchlight" game book, by Web DM. The Web DM gang are very positive about the game book, and especially appreciate the format of the social adventure, the large number of NPC's, and describing the book as interesting, fun, and open for DM's to use in their campaign with great flexibility in how the Player Party proceeds into and through the adventure. The book is full of different locations, secrets, relationships, and a distinctly different approach to what can be done using the D&D rules. Web DM appreciates the callbacks to earlier D&D history, like THACO Clown, whom they laugh at with great mirth. They characterize the format of the book as laying out a unique framework for making a social adventure, instead of every adventure merely being a hack and slash fest relying on swords and fireballs. It's a different style of D&D play experience, but it is still D&D, they maintain. Web DM are thoroughly positive on this adventure book, and feel that the book offers a fresh and satisfying style of adventure for a DM's game campaign.

Web DM doesn't critique the game book like others have--with no mention whatsoever of any kind of controversial politics or contentious aspects. It's weird, listening to Web DM they seem to have an entirely different perspective on the game book than Pundit, for example, or other members here. It's almost like they reviewed an entirely different product--the book has the same name, but their entire approach seems like they are on a different planet.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Shark,

We ran a D&D social non-combat adventure once. The scenario was we were all at court, in a Game of Thrones style setting of intrigue and betrayl. No one wore armor or carried arms. The adventure consisted mainly of Diplomacy and Sense Motive checks (this was the 3E era.) There was a very tense feel, where one wrong word might be your end. Oddly enough, both the "face" characters and the "I hit it with my axe" characters had something to contribute, but everyone was glad it was only one night of play. It felt more like a Vampire game than D&D, and at times degenerated into Magical Tea Party. MTP is basically when the PCs just talk about stuff, and the rules don't matter, not even the social rules. Theater types LOVE it, especially if they get to have funny characters who talk in funny accents.

Witchlight doesn't bother me, because it doesn't interest me. If I want to do social non-com again, it will be another GOT style setting rather than bunny men and faeries. My dilemma is Rime of the Frostmaiden, which hits all the right beats, but I don't want to give WOTC any money.


« Last Edit: October 18, 2021, 04:44:35 PM by Aglondir »

DM_Curt

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Re: Wild Beyond the Witchlight by Web DM--A Different Approach
« Reply #17 on: October 18, 2021, 04:51:02 PM »
...

Because they are the target audience for this, not you. We are now starting to see official "D&D" adventures made for the new-school player base that has an entirely different idea what "playing D&D" means...

We saw a little bit of this with the changes they made to Nu-Ravenloft, and other "re-imaginings" of classic  D&D modules and settings.

Now with Wild Beyond the Witchlight and the upcoming Strixhaven, we are seeing them take the step to try and sell what I would call: "Disney Story Time D&D"...

Wild Beyond the Witchlight is the Disney Fairytale version of the Feywild, not the Sword and Sorcery Brothers Grimm one...

*Even the people on this site that have the Wild Beyond the Witchlight, mention what bits they can use for their kids in the next sentence...*

And yet the Wild Beyond the Witchlight is being pushed as major mainstream setting/adventure book for the general D&D fanbase.

<snip>
Guilty as charged, and not a bit of remorse.
I'm in my 40s and my kids are in their early teens. We're outside of WotC's target audience, age-wise and socially.

I like 5e's basic ruleset, as per the core 3 books, but just like every edition before it, the DM has the right to chop it into bits for their table and their game world. (there's 12 pages I'd yank out of the 5e PHb, and it would feel a lot more like my beloved 2e.)
But I'll also chop up an OSR-type product and use what parts I want. And I'll feel even better for having supported an independent creator, even if I don't run it RAW. Partly because I have no intention of running 0e Basic D&D or a clone thereof.

Standing outside the OSR, looking in, I see the OSR like the outlaw chopper culture. "F the factory!" "Flip that patch!" "Built not Bought!" These folks are building their own stuff and the creativity is there in these products.  I just started following one creator and bought Expedition to Ancient Aegypt and Orc+Bone. I might run Aegypt as-is while on vacation and then yank the ruleset out to throw that setting into my D&D game. I might yank the ruleset out of Orc+Bone and run that with a more modern ruleset. Why? Because the concepts and themes are stuff that WotC wouldn't have the balls to do.


Jaeger

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Re: Wild Beyond the Witchlight by Web DM--A Different Approach
« Reply #18 on: October 18, 2021, 09:41:43 PM »
Guilty as charged, and not a bit of remorse.
I'm in my 40s and my kids are in their early teens. We're outside of WotC's target audience, age-wise and socially.

I like 5e's basic ruleset, as per the core 3 books, but just like every edition before it, the DM has the right to chop it into bits for their table and their game world.
...

Entirely your right.

The point I am inexpertly making is that Wild Beyond the Witchlight, and other earlier design trends we saw from the current WotC 5e team are indicative of an overall shift in direction and tone for the game of D&D that is being pushed from within the WotC dev team.

And yes, while anyone can take the bits they like, and ignore the ones they don't. That is not an argument in Wild Beyond the Witchlight's favor. That's just something anyone can do with it.

The arguments for or against it are what type of D&D experience does Wild Beyond the Witchlight deliver when payed RAW.

And there are enough very detailed reviews for it out now that I can say that it is not the type of "D&D" I have any interest in, and a major product launch like this back in the TSR days would have gotten a resounding:



Now, all we can do is this:



And not give money to people who hate us.

Because if the woke cult had their way a lot of "old guard" fans would be doing this:


"The envious are not satisfied with equality; they secretly yearn for superiority and revenge."

Shasarak

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Re: Wild Beyond the Witchlight by Web DM--A Different Approach
« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2021, 10:21:36 PM »
From the looks of the sales of this on Amazon it is on track to sell 10s of copies.
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Donahue82

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Re: Wild Beyond the Witchlight by Web DM--A Different Approach
« Reply #20 on: October 18, 2021, 10:48:37 PM »
While I admit I am kinda curious over what the book is actually like I won't give WotC anymore money and have better things to do with my time.

As someone else who started with VtM/V:DA and such I have to say that DnD doesn't really have a very good social system but then again that's not its focus! DnD is about going on adventures, getting into fights, delving into dungeons. It doesn't really sound like they expanded much to help flesh out in those areas and while yes actual role playing of your character is important I do need the Insight, Persuasion, and Intimidation rolls cause Grace, Graceful, and socially astute aren't used to describe me.

In all honesty, I expect that it will be something of a mess. I used to play and run a fair amount of Adventurer's League but they just got more and more confusing and less and less creative. The encounters that you were supposed to talk and fight in weren't even hinted at, nor were they even specced out incase the players went another way. Last season I ran, there were so many "friendly" monsters that is was boring and most did a Heel-Face Swerve that everybody saw coming. Embers of the Last War for Eberron was terrible, just terrible. Such a waste of potential.

As far as the WebDM guys go, I honestly don't care for their content. They love to talk and talk and talk about, around and around and around about the topic but rarely if ever offer actual suggestions or solutions.

Eirikrautha

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Re: Wild Beyond the Witchlight by Web DM--A Different Approach
« Reply #21 on: October 18, 2021, 11:39:54 PM »
Never underestimate the power of soy!

I gave the same kind of review as Web DM.

LOL!  Some things are beyond predictable.  Practically Laws of the Universe...

Trond

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Re: Wild Beyond the Witchlight by Web DM--A Different Approach
« Reply #22 on: October 18, 2021, 11:47:44 PM »
From the looks of the sales of this on Amazon it is on track to sell 10s of copies.

Are you saying that 10s of people like something that I might not like??!!? Now I won’t be able to sleep at night!

S'mon

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Re: Wild Beyond the Witchlight by Web DM--A Different Approach
« Reply #23 on: October 19, 2021, 02:58:24 AM »
1. Web DM - absolutely no reason to think they are SJWs, I'm not going to criticise them if they like this product.

2. Crawford has made no secret of his agenda, which is political, and does include pushing away grognards. WoTC 2020-21 feels a lot like Paizo 2013-14. I don't much like him, I don't respect either his rules ability, his creative ability, or his socio-political agenda. I avoid buying WoTC product created under his direction.

SHARK

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Re: Wild Beyond the Witchlight by Web DM--A Different Approach
« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2021, 03:15:25 AM »
Greetings!

Here, we have a video review of "Wild Beyond the Witchlight" game book, by Web DM. The Web DM gang are very positive about the game book, and especially appreciate the format of the social adventure, the large number of NPC's, and describing the book as interesting, fun, and open for DM's to use in their campaign with great flexibility in how the Player Party proceeds into and through the adventure. The book is full of different locations, secrets, relationships, and a distinctly different approach to what can be done using the D&D rules. Web DM appreciates the callbacks to earlier D&D history, like THACO Clown, whom they laugh at with great mirth. They characterize the format of the book as laying out a unique framework for making a social adventure, instead of every adventure merely being a hack and slash fest relying on swords and fireballs. It's a different style of D&D play experience, but it is still D&D, they maintain. Web DM are thoroughly positive on this adventure book, and feel that the book offers a fresh and satisfying style of adventure for a DM's game campaign.

Web DM doesn't critique the game book like others have--with no mention whatsoever of any kind of controversial politics or contentious aspects. It's weird, listening to Web DM they seem to have an entirely different perspective on the game book than Pundit, for example, or other members here. It's almost like they reviewed an entirely different product--the book has the same name, but their entire approach seems like they are on a different planet.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Shark,

We ran a D&D social non-combat adventure once. The scenario was we were all at court, in a Game of Thrones style setting of intrigue and betrayl. No one wore armor or carried arms. The adventure consisted mainly of Diplomacy and Sense Motive checks (this was the 3E era.) There was a very tense feel, where one wrong word might be your end. Oddly enough, both the "face" characters and the "I hit it with my axe" characters had something to contribute, but everyone was glad it was only one night of play. It felt more like a Vampire game than D&D, and at times degenerated into Magical Tea Party. MTP is basically when the PCs just talk about stuff, and the rules don't matter, not even the social rules. Theater types LOVE it, especially if they get to have funny characters who talk in funny accents.

Witchlight doesn't bother me, because it doesn't interest me. If I want to do social non-com again, it will be another GOT style setting rather than bunny men and faeries. My dilemma is Rime of the Frostmaiden, which hits all the right beats, but I don't want to give WOTC any money.

Greetings!

Hi Aglondir! GOT-like, huh? Cool! Theater types *love it*! *Laughing* I can see that. Interesting that the group mostly didn't want to do that style more. I suppose it depends on having a group more made up of Theater type players.

I often like social-style adventures, but in a kind of limited way; a degree of social stuff, then it's time for blood and fire. I have always had mixed groups--composed of Theater types and Blood and Thunder types, so as a DM, I have always had to create somewhat complex adventures where there's some time rationed out and paced for socialization, romance, and shopping, and then time for slaughtering and grabbing gold. ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
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SHARK

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Re: Wild Beyond the Witchlight by Web DM--A Different Approach
« Reply #25 on: October 19, 2021, 03:18:42 AM »
1. Web DM - absolutely no reason to think they are SJWs, I'm not going to criticise them if they like this product.

2. Crawford has made no secret of his agenda, which is political, and does include pushing away grognards. WoTC 2020-21 feels a lot like Paizo 2013-14. I don't much like him, I don't respect either his rules ability, his creative ability, or his socio-political agenda. I avoid buying WoTC product created under his direction.

Greetings!

Yep, S'mon! I've always liked Web DM. I've watched dozens of their video programs. They are consistently solid. ;D

Crawford...yeah, the more I hear about him, the more retarded, smarmy, and malicious he seems to be.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
"It is the Marine Corps that will strip away the façade so easily confused with self. It is the Corps that will offer the pain needed to buy the truth. And at last, each will own the privilege of looking inside himself  to discover what truly resides there. Comfort is an illusion. A false security b

Godsmonkey

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Re: Wild Beyond the Witchlight by Web DM--A Different Approach
« Reply #26 on: October 19, 2021, 09:44:37 AM »
It's no big shock to me that Web DM is all in on the book. They are the woketards it was written for. I chose to unsubscribe to their channel as it became increasingly obvious that they are part of the "woke" crowd.

I wasnt going to buy the product regardless, but Im happy for them that they enjoyed it.

hedgehobbit

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Re: Wild Beyond the Witchlight by Web DM--A Different Approach
« Reply #27 on: October 19, 2021, 11:37:48 AM »
Theater types LOVE it, especially if they get to have funny characters who talk in funny accents.

It's not just the players, WotC loves this direction. They can write an adventure where they don't need to care about character balance, or challenge level, or risk v reward. They just create a silly situation and they're done. It's the easiest type of adventure to write because you can't make a mistake. You can't get rules wrong and you don't need to playtest.

hedgehobbit

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Re: Wild Beyond the Witchlight by Web DM--A Different Approach
« Reply #28 on: October 19, 2021, 11:41:40 AM »
Reading things for oneself is always highly recommended.

Problem is, you can't read it without paying for it and once you've paid for it, it no longer matters if it's good or bad as WotC already has your money.

It's why paid reviewers are so effective.

HappyDaze

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Re: Wild Beyond the Witchlight by Web DM--A Different Approach
« Reply #29 on: October 19, 2021, 11:53:43 AM »
Reading things for oneself is always highly recommended.

Problem is, you can't read it without paying for it and once you've paid for it, it no longer matters if it's good or bad as WotC already has your money.

It's why paid reviewers are so effective.
Funny you should say that, because I was able to read it at the local Books-a-Million without paying for it.