Quote from: Doctor Jest;564930Yeah, Daniel Jackson, allergic civilian archaeologist, was totally able to kick ass from day one? Really?

John Chrichton didn't do any real ass kicking for almost two seasons. Mostly he did alot of talking and running. And even then, the ass kicking was pretty rare. Chrichton may have been badass back on Earth (his Backstory), but out in the rest of the galaxy, he was pretty incapable of anything; in his own words, it took him "ten minutes to figure out how to open the door".

And, besides, a Level 1 D&D Fighter is a trained soldier and can kick ass, too. He's just not going to be the guy who saves the world today, because he's not that bad ass just yet. He'll be the guy who saves the world in a couple of years from now, when he's had a chance to grow into the shoes of a Hero. For now, he's got to get out there and earn his chops as a Hero. He's already a guy with military training, like our Stargate SG-1 guys (except DJ, of course) but like them, he isn't a Big Damn Hero... yet.



Many games have "Connections" as an element of Character Advancement. For example, you can purchase connections as an edge is Savage Worlds. In ACKS, you can establish a base of operations and get followers after level 9. Building your alliances can certainly be a part of the zero to hero experience.

So really, that fits too.

And really, in Farscape, they made far more enemies than they made friends. It really wasn't about alliances at all, in the end. It was about John Chrichton's Super-Magical Wormhole Powerz.



And John Chrichton.

I disagree. First, I don't think having super-magical powers is a pre-requisite of Zero to Hero. Zero-to-Hero is about, as mentioned, The Hero's Journey, not how one particular game system models that mechanically, so I think that's a red herring.

That said,

Sam Carter's proficiency with the Sufficiently Greater Technology (i.e. Magic) of the setting is a clear example of "leveling up" or advancement.

Chrichton became generally much more capable in a setting for which he had no useful skills to start with, and couldn't shoot a pulse pistol. He sank ALOT of points into skills!

Daniel Jackson was probably the most dramatic, as you yourself note, going from scholar to demi-god, at one point.

All of the characters are significantly more effective against foes that used to be very threatening to them in previous seasons. I.E. those foes used to be way above their Challenge Rating. For example, SG-1 had to flee a group of Jaffa early in the series, but later, they could stand their ground against a large number of them successfully without much trouble.

That's leveling up/having advancement. It just isn't in-genre for that to manifest as big flashy powers all the time, but rather as more subtle adjustments to the kinds of threats being faced. That doesn't mean it isn't obviously there. It's that the Jaffa used to be scary by themselves, then they were scary in groups, then they were scary in big numbers, then they really weren't anything more than a speedbump most of the time. Much like, say, Orcs in D&D.

Its still not zero to hero, its hero to hero. Chrichton was an astronaut, by definition one of the best and brightest. Jackson certainly did kick ass where it needed kicking. There's nothing whatsoever to support level based improvement in any of these shows, even John's wormhole thing doesn't get appreciably better except for one instance - there's plenty to support skill based improvements, however.

They start as heroes, and end as heroes.

Quote from: The Traveller;564958Its still not zero to hero, its hero to hero. Chrichton was an astronaut, by definition one of the best and brightest.

Not in the context of the setting, no. The whole point of the pilot episode is that he may have been big news on a primitive little planet on the ass end of the galaxy, but in the larger world, he didn't know jack shit. He was a nobody, without any skills that could do anything worthwhile In the setting, to the point his teammates considered him useless and stupid. He was a zero level galactic citizen. Because the things that made him cool as an astronaut on Earth were commonplace in the rest of the galaxy; everyone else could do those things. His astronaut skills are like someone winning a horse drawn carriage race going to NASCAR.

I mean, it IS The Hero's Journey. Name one myth cycle where the person leaving home wasn't an exceptional or special in some way member of his people at home? The Hero's Journey myth cycle is dead on what these things are doing.

QuoteJackson certainly did kick ass where it needed kicking

In season one? I call bullshit on that. Jackson did t get ass kicking until late season 2, at least. He had to level up first. It wasn't until after his wife died that he really because kick ass, and I think that was season 3, but I can't recall precisely.

Quote. There's nothing whatsoever to support level based improvement in any of these shows,.

I said leveling or advancement, again you're getting hung up on how a particular game models advancement instead of the concept of advancement itself. Your argument seems to be that these shows aren't D&D and that I can agree with. But d&d, and levels like d&d has, aren't the only way zero to hero is modeled in RPGs, and not the only rpg to model that. but now we're really arguing what kind of zero to hero game system best models Farscape, not really if it's 02H

maybe it's point buy improvement, who cares? Point is, the characters went from fairly ineffective against the challenges of the setting to very effective against them. That's the sort of thing 02H models.

Again, see The Hero's Journey

I have no problem with starting at first level - I just started my nephews and son on a Pathfinder adventure today starting at first level.  

However, I don't buy that "Hero's Journey" in general is something unique to starting at first level.  Many heroes of myth start out at the beginning of their journey already very capable - like Hercules who was able to crush deadly serpents even from birth.  I think there can be a real hero's journey even for a character who starts out strong - like Hercules, Spiderman, Buffy Summers, etc.

Quote from: Doctor Jest;565063Not in the context of the setting, no. The whole point of the pilot episode is that he may have been big news on a primitive little planet on the ass end of the galaxy, but in the larger world, he didn't know jack shit. He was a nobody, without any skills that could do anything worthwhile In the setting, to the point his teammates considered him useless and stupid. He was a zero level galactic citizen. Because the things that made him cool as an astronaut on Earth were commonplace in the rest of the galaxy; everyone else could do those things. His astronaut skills are like someone winning a horse drawn carriage race going to NASCAR.

Doesn't matter. He picked up the relevant skills quickly (what, like two episodes?) because that's all they were, skills. He did not start out as a zero, he started out as one of the best. It only took him a short while to get up to speed because he started as a hero, albeit one thrust into a new environment.

Quote from: Doctor Jest;565063In season one? I call bullshit on that. Jackson did t get ass kicking until late season 2, at least. He had to level up first. It wasn't until after his wife died that he really because kick ass, and I think that was season 3, but I can't recall precisely.

You mistake my point - if the SG-1 teams could just murderhobo everything, they wouldn't have needed him along. His area of competence was more toward the intellectual, and in that he defintively did kick ass. And through that he actually ended up kicking more ass than everyone else put together.

Quote from: Doctor Jest;565063maybe it's point buy improvement, who cares? Point is, the characters went from fairly ineffective against the challenges of the setting to very effective against them. That's the sort of thing 02H models.

The point is, the characters went from having the best elite military or aerospace backgrounds in the world to having the best elite military or aerospace backgrounds in the world and having an understanding of, and alliances within, a new environment. There is no way any of these could be considered zeroes at any point in the shows.

Quote from: jhkim;565102However, I don't buy that "Hero's Journey" in general is something unique to starting at first level.  Many heroes of myth start out at the beginning of their journey already very capable - like Hercules who was able to crush deadly serpents even from birth.  I think there can be a real hero's journey even for a character who starts out strong - like Hercules, Spiderman, Buffy Summers, etc.

To be a Campbellian Hero's Journey there has to be a 'call to adventure'. The Hercules myth does not fit at all. Spiderman and the Buffy movie do both have it, though - in the Buffy TV show Buffy has already heard the call pre episode 1, when her Watcher turns up, but Zander & Willow do have it in the pilot episode, if you count them as heroes rather than companions.

Hercules has his labors, which I think would qualify as the call to adventure.

As for Stargate, there is some advancement for all the characters, but it's not strictly linear, and excluding Jackson they all start out pretty formidable.  Jackson and Carter are both hard to peg though, considering that neither of them have combat as a specialty.  

Presumably all of them get better at combat, excluding possibly O'Neil.  In the Big Finish audio play First Prime (which is canon) Teal'c mentions that he has 'learned much' and cites specifically being trained by O'Neil in 'black ops', the 'silent kill' which is something that he had no expertise in from his Jaffa background.  We also see him favoring guns instead of his staff weapon late in the series.

Jackson clearly gets better at skulking, combat and becomes probably the groups most daring member.  He's the most clearly transformed character from the beginning and the actor even undergoes a physical transformation (his physique, not Ascension).

Presumably Carter does get better at combat, and while she starts out with a military background she's untested and basic training and her shooting range marks means about dick for their missions.  Her ability to sneak, fight and shoot is a 'level up', and her scientific expertise and the overall level of technology that they regularly handle on the show increases dramatically throughout the series run.  She also arguably goes from being a subordinate to a leader which could be represented mechanically.

Of course just because they improve doesn't mean that they started out at 'zero'.  Jackson maybe, and arguably Carter are, but both are supposed to be absurdly smart as well, which is a 'power' all its' own.  Maybe less evident with Jackson but within the setting he's literally the only historian to ever get Earth's history "right", ever (unless Erich Von Daniken or Giorgio Tsoukalos exist in the Stargate universe, in which case they are at least in the ballpark, but I take it that Jackson was imagined as the progenitor of Ancient Astronaut theories in the setting).

I think if you were going to make a Stargate TRPG that you would want to include some way to improve the characters in a way that happens on the show.

Handling the O'Neil archetype might be problematic, but I don't think it would be insurmountable.  There are other RPGs based on shows that handle the 'main character' problem.