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Author Topic: Why the hate for narrative/story elements in a RPG?  (Read 38433 times)

fearsomepirate
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Why the hate for narrative/story elements in a RPG?
« Reply #90 on: August 05, 2017, 11:52:05 PM »
I will happily admit that I am both uncreative and busy. Hence my love for modules...I feel that full adventure paths that take you from level 1 to 15 are a little overbearing, though.
Every time I think the Forgotten Realms can't be a dumber setting, I get proven to be an unimaginative idiot.

Gronan of Simmerya

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Why the hate for narrative/story elements in a RPG?
« Reply #91 on: August 06, 2017, 12:02:00 AM »
Quote from: rgrove0172;980739
Cool, could be you just added a great deal (more than shit too!)  You reacted emotionally to a 'pet peeve' and commented instinctively. Thats probably what a lot of members do - they respond instantly and in the heat of the moment may not represent themselves in the same way than had they considered the thread a little longer. I know Ive done it many times, flown off the handle and made some sleezy, snide remark intended not to add anything constructive to the conversation but goad somebody who just pissed in my cornflakes!  

I think this is what I was getting at with this post. Im sort of betting that the famed War everyone is talking about isnt nearly as epic as we would guess by reading through hastily structured, emotional posts.

Thanks.

Well, first, we're back to my first post in this thread... "People overreact to shit.  It's what we do as a species."

Secondly, EVERYBODY, as you point out, has a pet peeve.  Something that just gripes their wagger, as Dogbert says.  So there's that.

Thirdly, as C.S. Lewis says, it matters "greatly whether he is fresh or tired, well or ill."  Somebody has a shitty day at work, don't be surprised when it shows up on their keyboard.

Fourthly, what else is going on in somebody's life?  Tonight six hours away, some of my oldest and dearest friends are continuing a campaign I started in as a player back in 1977.

Meanwhile, I'm stuck in a fucking shitass jerkwater half-baked turd bucket of a town in the middle of the Godforsaken prairie.  I have to drive more than an hour to get to anything other than cornfields and soybeans.  If I never see another cowboy hat, or never hear country/western "music" again, it will be an infinity of millennia too soon.  I'm living in a fucking house trailer because the fucking parish is too fucking cheap to pay for anything fucking better.

We are here because my wife is an Episcopal priest and this is her parish.  She's been looking for three years for a new one, but is still looking.  We both hate it here.  But in the Episcopal church, at least, if a priest leaves a parish before they have another, they will never work again.  Effectively, if not technically, she would be abandoning her orders.

I''m 62 years old.  If I'm lucky I've got 30 good years left.  I don't want to spend any more of it rotting away in this fucking shitheap of a town.  I'm thoroughly miserable, and there is no direct action I can personally take to change it.  I don't want to divorce my wife, I don't want her to abandon her orders, and I can't find a job for her.

I wasn't always a grumpy old fucker.  But yeah, it affects the tenor of my posts.
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David Johansen

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Why the hate for narrative/story elements in a RPG?
« Reply #92 on: August 06, 2017, 12:26:00 AM »
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;980735
Well, at least as Pathfinder uses the term, it is a long series of adventures tied loosely together with no real choice on how things go.  "You WILL do this, and then you WILL do that."  The first one I played through, the only interesting bit was when we accidentally stumbled into an encounter considerably before we were "supposed" to.

Of course, I personally think that modules were the worst thing that ever happened to D&D, so that is the background radiation of my opinion.


Wow, I think we agree on something.  :o

I do think a good DM can make a pre-written adventure work but I also think the first step is to see it as a collection of maps, npcs, and events and be flexible.  Too often you get the "you guys screwed up the adventure" it's at least a little more forgivable than "you guys screwed up my story."

One thing I've come to accept is that people have different talents and some people are just more creative than others.  I think it's partly a matter of developing it through practice but people are also terrified of criticism which is a necessary part of growth.  You don't become good at anything creative by being uncritical.  But many people have had the creativity beaten right out of them though, if you ever start a sentence "not to be mean but," just stop and walk away, no constructive criticism ever started with that line.

I'm sorry to hear about where you live.  I'm in Lethbridge Alberta, a small rural city but I've spent a few years in small towns and I'm with you on "country music."
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Bren

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Why the hate for narrative/story elements in a RPG?
« Reply #93 on: August 06, 2017, 12:31:23 AM »
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;980735
Well, at least as Pathfinder uses the term, it is a long series of adventures tied loosely together with no real choice on how things go.  "You WILL do this, and then you WILL do that."  The first one I played through, the only interesting bit was when we accidentally stumbled into an encounter considerably before we were "supposed" to.

Of course, I personally think that modules were the worst thing that ever happened to D&D, so that is the background radiation of my opinion.
Never ran a D&D module. They didn't exist when I ran D&D nor with very rare exceptions, when I've played it. On the other hand, when I've run Call of Cthulhu, Star Trek, and Star Wars those games are almost exclusively what I would call mission based for what I hope are fairly obvious reasons. And there often is a path, of sorts, to CoC, Trek, and Star Wars adventures. So when you say "adventure path" it really isn't clear to me what you are referring to or that you are essentially talking about Pathfinder and Pathfinder like adventures. Never having ever read or played a Pathfinder adventure I've no clue what they are like, though your description doesn't make them sound like my cup of tea.
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crkrueger

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Why the hate for narrative/story elements in a RPG?
« Reply #94 on: August 06, 2017, 12:35:11 AM »
Railroad vs. Sandbox has never had anything to with Story/Narrative vs. Non-Story/Narrative.  Narrative people, Forge people, storygamers, etc, they hate railroads as much as, if not more than anybody.
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Voros
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Why the hate for narrative/story elements in a RPG?
« Reply #95 on: August 06, 2017, 12:35:59 AM »
I love 'hard' country music, the pop crap they play on the radio is no more representative of the genre past or present than Whitesnake is for rock or Lil' Jon for hip-hop.

But to try and keep slightly OT, I've never encountered a GM who is a PTB module-user except when we were kids and didn't know what the hell we were doing.

And Gronan, have you thought of joining your friends' game remotely via Roll20 or Skype?

Gronan of Simmerya

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Why the hate for narrative/story elements in a RPG?
« Reply #96 on: August 06, 2017, 12:43:08 AM »
Tried.  So damn noisy I had a migraine for three days afterwards, which is another story.

I miss the days when we each ran multiple times a month so there was no such thing as one "group."
You should go to GaryCon.  Period.

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Bren

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Why the hate for narrative/story elements in a RPG?
« Reply #97 on: August 06, 2017, 12:46:24 AM »
Quote from: fearsomepirate;980747
I will happily admit that I am both uncreative and busy. Hence my love for modules...I feel that full adventure paths that take you from level 1 to 15 are a little overbearing, though.
Interesting.

For me prepping to run a published module or scenario is not really a time savings. That's one reason that I tend to use published scenarios almost exclusively for Call of Cthulhu. Where I find there is a bit more of a time savings due to the presence of player handouts, period research, and such.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;980749
Meanwhile, I'm stuck in a fucking shitass jerkwater half-baked turd bucket of a town in the middle of the Godforsaken prairie.  I have to drive more than an hour to get to anything other than cornfields and soybeans.  If I never see another cowboy hat, or never hear country/western "music" again, it will be an infinity of millennia too soon.  I'm living in a fucking house trailer because the fucking parish is too fucking cheap to pay for anything fucking better.

I''m 62 years old.  If I'm lucky I've got 30 good years left.  I don't want to spend any more of it rotting away in this fucking shitheap of a town.  I'm thoroughly miserable, and there is no direct action I can personally take to change it.  I don't want to divorce my wife, I don't want her to abandon her orders, and I can't find a job for her.
Yeah, that sucks. Hope things get better for you both soon.

I have heard that for a lot of the traditional religions there are a decreasing number of posts for the number of existing clergy. I suspect that Episcopalians fall into that category.
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Voros
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Why the hate for narrative/story elements in a RPG?
« Reply #98 on: August 06, 2017, 12:46:27 AM »
Yeah Skype is completely unpredictable, sometimes fine oftentimes crap.

Spinachcat

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Why the hate for narrative/story elements in a RPG?
« Reply #99 on: August 06, 2017, 12:49:11 AM »
Adventure Paths and Modules are shitshows. I'd rather play a boardgame. More challenge and equal roleplaying.  Hell, we played Zombicide last night and it had more roleplay than most Pathfinder Society or Living Campaign events I've been to. Worst part of the shitshows in most modern modules is they went from "balanced" (aka 50% should succeed) to "accessible" where you have to intentionally fuck up to lose. At least DCC and LotFP still make good modules, with much less choo-choo train.

As for "story games"? They are not RPGs. Never have been, never will be. They are their own thing. And that's totally fine.

I've played them and its group masturbation. Zero immersion, zero risk, all about spotlight and control of the story without having to put in the work of being the GM and taking the responsibility of being the GM. For me, they are a total shitshow.

Also, the storygame crowd I've encountered in California has been the fucking worst. I used to thank RPGA for keeping the dysfunctional gamers off my table, but the storygame crowd has a hefty SJW streak and I need to thank them for keeping that group of fucknuts off my table too. I just need 3-4 players at table and I usually get 6 when word gets out I'm running so have ZERO compunction about needing to appease.

But again, just because something is a shitshow to me doesn't mean others shouldn't free to enjoy it happily.



Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;980749
We are here because my wife is an Episcopal priest and this is her parish.  She's been looking for three years for a new one, but is still looking.  We both hate it here.


Gronan, could she start her own church? And if not a church, perhaps a religious non-profit center of some charitable sort?

I imagine it would be challenging, but at least you both would choose the location.

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WillInNewHaven

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Why the hate for narrative/story elements in a RPG?
« Reply #100 on: August 06, 2017, 12:53:34 AM »
Quote from: Voros;980758
Yeah Skype is completely unpredictable, sometimes fine oftentimes crap.

The last few updates improved its reliability but there is still the problem of that remote people have trouble hearing and being heard when face to face people are not considerate. I'm involved in two Skype games a week and we manage. But it's not ideal.

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Gronan of Simmerya

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Why the hate for narrative/story elements in a RPG?
« Reply #101 on: August 06, 2017, 01:00:22 AM »
The "face to face people not being considerate" was the big problem.  Half the group simply never stops talking.
You should go to GaryCon.  Period.

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Bren

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Why the hate for narrative/story elements in a RPG?
« Reply #102 on: August 06, 2017, 01:06:21 AM »
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;980762
The "face to face people not being considerate" was the big problem.  Half the group simply never stops talking.
I have pretty quiet players so that's not much of a problem. Skype isn't the greatest gaming experience and it does take some work on everyone's part. But it beats not being able to game with people I like.
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Voros
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Why the hate for narrative/story elements in a RPG?
« Reply #103 on: August 06, 2017, 01:12:27 AM »
Quote from: Spinachcat;980759


As for "story games"? They are not RPGs. Never have been, never will be. They are their own thing. And that's totally fine.

I've played them and its group masturbation. Zero immersion, zero risk, all about spotlight and control of the story without having to put in the work of being the GM and taking the responsibility of being the GM. For me, they are a total shitshow.

...
But again, just because something is a shitshow to me doesn't mean others shouldn't free to enjoy it happily.



Rather typically your criticism boils down to the fact that a true storygame (again no specifics or names of said game given) doesn't do what an RPG does. Kinda like saying 'this wine is a shitty beer!' or 'this video game isn't a good short story!' Seems to be missing the point, plus the half-hearted live and let live statement isn't really convincing after the insults, bile and political whining.

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Why the hate for narrative/story elements in a RPG?
« Reply #104 on: August 06, 2017, 01:55:28 AM »
In regards to the Skype tangent, Skype is crap for online gaming.  Try Wire or Mumble.  Both are much more reliable and sound better.