I've noticed that sometimes when a game like Aces & Eights gets brought up some folks here poo poo the idea of an alternate history. So I just wanted to know why that is. Personally I like Alternate histories but I do think that actual history can be fun too. Anyways I hope everyone can share their thoughts on this subject.

Never come across this. SJWs might get annoyed because a game setting still has the Confederacy or the likes. Although they also get triggered by real world history.


I am possibly biased in favour of alternative history right now because I've recently discovered Odd Soot for Mythras. Alternative 1920s with space travel and magic, which sounds like the kind of thing I normally dislike, but the way it's done is brilliant; the book oozes atmosphere.

Quote from: arcanuum on September 24, 2020, 12:45:32 AM
I've noticed that sometimes when a game like Aces & Eights gets brought up some folks her poo poo the idea of an alternate history. So I just wanted to know why that is.

Because no gender-queer fan-fiction is out for it.

I for one love uchronias and think they are just as great as multiverses but thats just me, i didnt bring this up among other players so i hope we get some viewpoints here.

Hate for alternate histories here? Where?
What more likely see are people here who dont like certain ways an alternate history is being done. Example: A few months ago there was some extensive debate here over how they were handling the Deadlands setting. And around same time some debate on the rampant mis-handling of the Call of Cthulhu RPG setting.

Generally alt history only starts catching flak if it's utterly improbable.


When I say 'improbable', I am NOT referring to Alien Space Bat interference. That comes up sometimes. What I mean is changes that stretch the credulity of the reader by positing nigh-impossible changes.


Example:
WW2 Alt History A: Hitler, despite the temptation, decides to NOT attack the Russians and break the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. He has his hands full with subduing Europe and opts to purge the filthy Cossacks and their Communist masters another day.


That's plausible (even if Hitler was starting to lose his marbles around this time).


WW2 Alt History B: Hitler breaks the pact and annihilates the Russian army by utilizing powerful super-soldiers to back up his conventional units.


That's kind of the plot for Kieron Gillen's series Uber. Still workable even with a dose of Alien Space Bat magic.


WW2 Alt History C: Hitler breaks the pact and annihilates the Russians in the middle of winter.


Hahah no. There's a reason General Winter is a 'thing' in Russia. The Germans simply were not going to take Russian territory when they were freezing and low on fuel for vehicles.


Does that make sense?

Yeah, I've never seen any hate for alternate histories per se. Generally they only come in for flak around here, so far as I've seen, under several conditions:

- They're boring.
- They're obviously an excuse to ride a particular political advocacy hobbyhorse (SJ causes are the most common but not the only one).
- They get something wrong in a way that catches the attention of history experts in the period.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on September 24, 2020, 11:00:32 AM
- They get something wrong in a way that catches the attention of history experts in the period.

Like a successful Operation Sealion with any Point of Departure after 1933.

Alternate History is a lot like Fan-Fiction - there's probably some that you'd like, but lots of it that just looks like trash to you.  The hard part is finding an alternate history that is compelling and broadly appealing. 


In many cases, you can avoid all of those issues by repackaging the alternate history in a totally new setting (like Old West parallels/post Civil War with Firefly). 


In many cases, players don't want to be constrained by the historical beliefs/prejudices that are appropriate in that setting.  As you make more and more changes to the history to accommodate player tastes, you have less and less that makes a historical setting useful. 

While I find some alt-history fiction interesting, I find alt-history RPG settings uninteresting.* There are scads of RPGs with fictional settings, so if I'm going to have a setting with some real history I'd far rather work with all real history** rather than set things in some alternate universe where the Persians conquered Ancient Greece or the Nazis won WWII.

* It's worse than uninteresting. Alt history means that I not only need to know some real history, but I also need to remember whatever other fake-history premises and consequences some designer thought was cool and put in their alt-history setting. So from a learning the setting perspective, I get all the disadvantages of real history along with all the disadvantages of a detailed, made-up setting. It's lose-lose for me as the GM.

** Within the limits of the history used in the setting. The setting may use real history as the backdrop, but it may not be much more real than the real history one might see in a fictional TV show or movie. (It probably will be more real than most, just because I like consistent settings and I like reading about history.) And the setting might even include unreal things like werewolves, Transylvanian vampires, Egyptian mummies, witches, or zombies...or maybe the setting just includes legends of them just like we have in the really-real world.

I think it is just like anything else in the hobby: some people like it, some people don't. There was a game that came out in the 90s called Godlike, which was alt history and I remembered quite enjoying it at the time (probably one of the only superhero games I actually liked, and it was because it drew me in with the history). I don't know if TORG counts as alt history, as the concept is so strange, but that worked for me too. And I liked Colonial Gothic (which I think billed itself more as Secret History, but still felt like alt history to me).

I did one alt-history RPG (Servants of Gaius), and a lot of people enjoyed the concept but I also heard from people who didn't like it (though usually it was framed as a moral objection to making Caligula 'good' rather than a general objection to alt history). The idea was that Caligula, who was reputed to have waged a mad battle against Neptune by sending his soldiers on the beach, then declared victory by filling chests with shells as booty, really was at war with Neptune and really was a god. For the most part though it was faithful to the history. It was just adding in an interesting spin on things Suetonius mentioned in the 12 Caesars (which were dramatized very well in I, Claudius).


Obviously one reason you might introduce alternative history is to help make the setting more readily gameable (especially if you are brining in supernatural threats). But I think it can also be to help give the setting a concept that grabs peoples interest. And that can swing two ways. You might put in superheroes to make a historical setting more palatable. But the historical aspect can also draw people into a genre they might not otherwise have an interest in (like me with the game Godlike). Personally I like having both standard history and alt history out there as options in the RPG world.

Quote from: deadDMwalking on September 24, 2020, 03:53:16 PM
Alternate History is a lot like Fan-Fiction - there's probably some that you'd like, but lots of it that just looks like trash to you.  The hard part is finding an alternate history that is compelling and broadly appealing. 


In many cases, you can avoid all of those issues by repackaging the alternate history in a totally new setting (like Old West parallels/post Civil War with Firefly). 


In many cases, players don't want to be constrained by the historical beliefs/prejudices that are appropriate in that setting.  As you make more and more changes to the history to accommodate player tastes, you have less and less that makes a historical setting useful.

Firefly sucks and Joss Whedon is an untalented hack but you kind of have a point

What Bren said, with one additional point.  I have on occasion forgotten that certain "facts" were alt-history rather than real history during a real life discussion.  Not a mistake I care to repeat.

Quote from: Doc Sammy on September 24, 2020, 07:07:34 PM
Firefly sucks

Motherf...

Quote from: Doc Sammy on September 24, 2020, 07:07:34 PM
Firefly sucks and Joss Whedon is an untalented hack but you kind of have a point

I suppose that would be true...