Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;690207I heard that term first from James Wallis, at a Gen Con around the publication of 3e.

Great minds, convergent evolution, yadda-yadda, and another bit of proof that there's no such thing as a new idea.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;690236The trend of being over-gimmicky and full of exclusive bits is a simple reaction to the realization that rpg players don't really need that much product to enjoys years of entertainment. Its what keeps the industry from becoming the huge cash cow that some companies are trying to turn it into.

Huge cash cow? Nobody is making real money from RPGs. Paizo, WotC, and FFG make enough from their RPG segments to keep a small number of professionals employed full time. And what's wrong with being a 'cash cow' anyway? If you're making lots of money, it's because you're producing things that a lot of people want. And people who don't want it don't have to buy it. These are discretionary entertainment items, not necessities. Nobody is being ripped off.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;690236WHFRP 3E did the same thing. Tons of unique fiddly bits included largely just to prevent piracy. These types of publishing tricks just show us that some game companies don't really give a shit about roleplaying, only about how to turn the biggest buck from IP in the roleplaying market.

The fiddly bits in WFRP 3E aren't gimmicks. The dice enable a much more diverse range of action outcomes than succeed/fail. They're tactile and functional. Cards for players powers are a great idea. Far more efficient that writing down a half-dozen abilities and actions long-hand on paper, or constantly passing around a book to flip through. The components serve the system.

And a lot of people love tactile bits in games. It's not a trick or anti-piracy measure. FFG blings out all of its games because that's what its fan-base wants. They feel ripped off if there isn't a bunch of cards, tokens, stand-ups, etc.

None of that is anti-gamer. If you only like games that involve pens and paper, then good for you. That's a personal preference. Companies that publish games with all sorts of flashy components aren't breaking into your house and torching your books. They're offering options for people who like those sorts of products. If you don't want them, don't buy.

Quote from: Haffrung;690261Huge cash cow? Nobody is making real money from RPGs. Paizo, WotC, and FFG make enough from their RPG segments to keep a small number of professionals employed full time. And what's wrong with being a 'cash cow' anyway? If you're making lots of money, it's because you're producing things that a lot of people want. And people who don't want it don't have to buy it. These are discretionary entertainment items, not necessities. Nobody is being ripped off.

what keeps the industry from becoming the huge cash cow

Thus I agree that there isn't a great deal of real money in rpgs.

There isn't anything wrong with making an honest buck. Turning an rpg into something else and selling it as an rpg ( forex turing D&D into MtG and claiming the game remains the same) just sucks.

If you want to make a fortune selling your rpg, then go for it, but don't turn it into a competitive, deck building wankfest and still call it an rpg.

If you need to turn an apple into an orange just to generate sales then you are better off sticking to just selling oranges.

Quote from: Haffrung;690261The fiddly bits in WFRP 3E aren't gimmicks. The dice enable a much more diverse range of action outcomes than succeed/fail. They're tactile and functional. Cards for players powers are a great idea. Far more efficient that writing down a half-dozen abilities and actions long-hand on paper, or constantly passing around a book to flip through. The components serve the system.

And a lot of people love tactile bits in games. It's not a trick or anti-piracy measure. FFG blings out all of its games because that's what its fan-base wants. They feel ripped off if there isn't a bunch of cards, tokens, stand-ups, etc.

None of that is anti-gamer. If you only like games that involve pens and paper, then good for you. That's a personal preference. Companies that publish games with all sorts of flashy components aren't breaking into your house and torching your books. They're offering options for people who like those sorts of products. If you don't want them, don't buy.

I don't, and I don't mind board/card games with lots of fiddly bits-they just aren't rpgs. If you need a card, chit, or specialized die to determine what you do next, it ain't an rpg.

 Thus oranges being marketed as apples.

Quote from: Endless Flight;690250I'm interested in DCC but two things keep me from buying it:

1. The PDF is $25.

2. The dice.

Same here.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;690256How are they required?  Most 'specialty dice' I've seen may have different symbols, but they seem to have normal number of sides.  

For example, JAM dice in Warhammer 40k are a 6 sided dice that has 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, Jam (I think - I haven't used them in a long time).  

But they could just as easily be represented by 1=1, 2=2, 3=3, 4=1, 5=2, 6=JAM.  Mapping the values can be a little more complex, but if you know what the original dice has on the faces, recreating it isn't hard.

I get what you are saying here, but the dice in FFG's Star Wars RPG are normal polyhedrons without numbers but symbols. There is no conversion chart telling you what number means which symbol. So without a conversion chart, you need the dice.

Yes, you could reverse engineer this to create your own conversion chart, but then someone has to buy the gimmick dice to do the reverse engineering.

That alone is enough extra work to prevent most people from spending money on a game that they do not know if they will like or not. It is exclusionary and not inclusionary.

There actually is a conversion chart in Star Wars: Edge of the Empire telling you what number on a "normal" die means what symbol. They kind of went out of their way having a section telling players they didn't need to buy the dice to play the game.

When your idea of a professional RPG is to have cardboard counters, glossy paper and color artwork throughout to wank on in your spare time, I think you might be missing something about what RPGs are actually supposed to be designed for. YMMV.

Quote from: Bill;690222As a mental exercise I am curious what the theory behind that mechanic is.

Here goes : They are trying to mitigate 'one uber stat' dominating rolls.
With two or three stats represented, and 3 rolls needed to succeed, it 'averages out' things.

That would be a gamist reason, but it is even easier: simulation.

Maybe they took RQ as an inspiration where two stats lend their bonuses to all skills of a certain category.
They thought "hey, we can do better than RQ: not only do three stats have a say in each skill (and not necessarily three different stats as there can be a combination as STR/STR/CON as well as DEX/WIS/CHA*) but we have different combinations for each single skill - and spell!"

The thing is that this 3d20 skill system has become a sacred cow. The publisher did a survey earlier this year (to help them decide what to do with the upcoming 5th edition) and the result was that they can't change it without alienating a lot of their customers.
It's as if THAC0 was a beloved part of AD&D and WotC couldn't change it for their ascending AC system.

They are between a rock and a hard place as several former DSA authors and designers (as well as some Cthulhu and Shadowrun editors) teamed up to design a brand new mainstream fantasy RPG. DSA5 is a reaction to that but they struggle what to do - change the system to make it more accessible or cater to the fans that they already have.


* DSA doesn't have D&D's attributes, I "translated" them for easier comparison.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;690267I don't, and I don't mind board/card games with lots of fiddly bits-they just aren't rpgs. If you need a card, chit, or specialized die to determine what you do next, it ain't an rpg.

 Thus oranges being marketed as apples.

So, Dungeons & Dragons, Castle Falkenstien, The Saga System, DCC, Shadowrun, World of Darkness, Earthdawn, Call of Cthulhu, et al are not RPGs because they use specialized dice or cards? Methinks you didn't think that argument through very hard.

And yes, WHFRP 3rd is definitely an RPG. Presenting the information differently doesn't change the game. If D&D's rules were written out on a roll of toilet paper, a deck of cards, or all on one big poster, it wouldn't stop being an rpg.

Yes, I think the argument that using some specialized dice or whatnot makes a game an instant failure is way overstated. By this definition, Dungeons & Dragons should have tanked with Supplement 1 Greyhawk. That obviously didn't happen. And when you start a game with newbies, it's also quite obvious that the dice are part of what makes people curious about the game in the first place.

There's a healthy medium in everything, however. So you can certainly take that sort of "gimmickry" to hindering extremes.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;690257Great minds, convergent evolution,...

I figured that much already.

I am surprised that a google search doesn't turns up more hits in English usenet so I must have overestimated the exposure of that term in the language that it originated in.

The (English) term "stupid dice tricks" has been a part of German RPG critique (on usenet, in magazine reviews, and in personal discussion) since the Wallis quote. So I honestly thought it was in wide use in English debate as well.

Quote from: jeff37923;690272I get what you are saying here, but the dice in FFG's Star Wars RPG are normal polyhedrons without numbers but symbols. There is no conversion chart telling you what number means which symbol. So without a conversion chart, you need the dice.

Yes, you could reverse engineer this to create your own conversion chart, but then someone has to buy the gimmick dice to do the reverse engineering.

That alone is enough extra work to prevent most people from spending money on a game that they do not know if they will like or not. It is exclusionary and not inclusionary.

Quote from: Endless Flight;690275There actually is a conversion chart in Star Wars: Edge of the Empire telling you what number on a "normal" die means what symbol. They kind of went out of their way having a section telling players they didn't need to buy the dice to play the game.

Again, not familiar with the rules, but it seems like this would sort of have to the way of it.  

If there are 8 unique symbols on the die, and your book tells you what each symbol means, you can just assign the values 1-8 in order to the symbols as they're listed in the book.  

The benefit of a dice with symbols is that it can reinforce the game 'feel'.  I could flip a coin and 'heads' equals 'rebels have advantage' and 'tails' equals 'empire has advantage', but thematically, it would be better if I had a specialized coin with the Rebel symbol and the Empire symbol on opposite sides.  While a US Quarter is a perfect substitute in terms of the 'randomizing' aspect of the die roll, it doesn't reinforce the theme of the game the same way.

Again - no experience with this PARTICULAR set of dice, but most specialty dice seem to fit that pattern.  They are more tied in to the 'fiction' of the world to help create a more 'immersive' experience...  Since you're already divorced from the action by using dice and imagination, reducing that disconnect even a little is considered worthwhile to some folks.

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;690277The thing is that this 3d20 skill system has become a sacred cow.

When I read that version of Das Schwarze Auge I thought the idea was interesting at first glance. Then I realized how over-complicated that was for a base mechanic, and I wondered what the fuck happened to the game I liked when I was a kid.

I recently re-read the Initiation au Jeu d'Aventure game box, and I still like that game a lot.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;690284Again, not familiar with the rules, but it seems like this would sort of have to the way of it.  

If there are 8 unique symbols on the die, and your book tells you what each symbol means, you can just assign the values 1-8 in order to the symbols as they're listed in the book.  

The benefit of a dice with symbols is that it can reinforce the game 'feel'.  I could flip a coin and 'heads' equals 'rebels have advantage' and 'tails' equals 'empire has advantage', but thematically, it would be better if I had a specialized coin with the Rebel symbol and the Empire symbol on opposite sides.  While a US Quarter is a perfect substitute in terms of the 'randomizing' aspect of the die roll, it doesn't reinforce the theme of the game the same way.

Again - no experience with this PARTICULAR set of dice, but most specialty dice seem to fit that pattern.  They are more tied in to the 'fiction' of the world to help create a more 'immersive' experience...  Since you're already divorced from the action by using dice and imagination, reducing that disconnect even a little is considered worthwhile to some folks.

I took a picture of the chart from the book just to provide some evidence.

Quote from: Benoist;690286and I wondered what the fuck happened to the game I liked when I was a kid.

• Dragonlance - metaplot railroads and storyteller/illusionist GMs
  
• "Magical realism" - Hârn-like simulation of medieval (or rather, early Renaissance) life
  

Two concepts that don't mesh at all.
A rule system that supports gritty low-life and simulation of tiniest bits (and makes the fans fill out 4-page long character sheets) doesn't work with modules that handwave the most important elements.

"Let the players sweat for a few rounds, then let the ruffians escape. The players have no chance of capturing one of them." invalidates every single stat, skill, or equipment on the sheet. You don't need a skill check that relies on three attributes for that kind of play.