Quote from: droogArguably, though, there was always an implied setting (rather like Burning Wheel again). Victorianesque speed of communication and transportation; an aristocracy; heavily militarised; the UPP etc.

Traveller was never generic, I'd say. That it defined a generation of Sf roleplaying is something of an accident of history. If Star Wars had come out just a bit earlier, things would have been different.

There was definitely an implied setting, but no explicit one.  

As for generic, although I broadly agree with you it was explicitly intended as a generic sf rpg, it just didn't do a very good job of it.  Happily it did a much better job as a non-generic sf rpg, but that wasn't the original idea if you read the LBBs.  There is a ton of advice about setting up your campaign and creating a universe in Book 0.  It was only later they tied it to a setting that was as you rightly say already implicit.

Quote from: BalbinusAs for generic, although I broadly agree with you it was explicitly intended as a generic sf rpg

Was it, though? Did we even have the idea of a generic game then? Or was it that the infancy of roleplaying thrust upon us particular visions that we mistook for generality?

Anyway, I think for me the answer to this thread is that Traveller was a moment in roleplaying history in lots of ways, and that it's both setting and mechanics. Just like Mongoose's RQ ain't RQ to me, Traveller isn't really Traveller without 2d6 and the UPP.

Quote from: droogWas it, though? Did we even have the idea of a generic game then? Or was it that the infancy of roleplaying thrust upon us particular visions that we mistook for generality?

Several of the books said that Traveller was meant to handle what was then the full spectrum of sf, from pulp stuff to hard science.  The books also explicitly invite you to modify the system as you need to meet that goal; it was never intended to be a fixed system, so the implied setting could (in theory) be thrown out the window.  True of any game, I know, but that was the way the designers intended you to use Traveller.

Quote from: droogWas it, though? Did we even have the idea of a generic game then? Or was it that the infancy of roleplaying thrust upon us particular visions that we mistook for generality?

Anyway, I think for me the answer to this thread is that Traveller was a moment in roleplaying history in lots of ways, and that it's both setting and mechanics. Just like Mongoose's RQ ain't RQ to me, Traveller isn't really Traveller without 2d6 and the UPP.

If I recall correctly, although that term wasn't used it was explicit that you would make up your own sf universe and that it could be used to represent any sf universe you cared to create.

Now that wasn't really true, but that was the claim.  

I don't think generic as a term was used until the early 1980s, but the concept predates that, DnD was intended as a generic fantasy rpg after all though like Traveller it wasn't really.

I think it's important to distinguish between a game's intent and it's actual achievements.  Neither DnD nor Traveller were much good as generic games, but both were good games for all that.

By important here obviously I mean of no real importance at all in the grand scheme of things...

Quote from: BalbinusI think it's important to distinguish between a game's intent and it's actual achievements.  Neither DnD nor Traveller were much good as generic games, but both were good games for all that.

I'm just interested in the whole idea of generic games, and it's wound up with this question of the identity of Traveller.

Quote from: BalbinusBy important here obviously I mean of no real importance at all in the grand scheme of things...

I can't think what you could be suggesting.

Quote from: YamoHonetly, I'm just stunned. People really can complain about anything.

Hey, after years of drawing deckplans in meters in classic Traveller (where there was also a relationship to the ship size in tons), it's an important part of the feel for me.  There is a reason why most physicists don't do their work in the English system (yes, I've seen what such equations look like -- pounds measure force, not mass, for example).

Clealry, your mileage varies.

Quote from: droogWas it, though? Did we even have the idea of a generic game then?

The claim is that it was a generic SF game, in the same sense that D&D was (and in some ways, still is) a generic Fantasy game.  You don't have to run Traveller in the Imperium any more than you have to run D&D in Greyhawk, but the way the systems work and things that both systems support will put a certain flavor on any setting that you use either system for.  Remember, for D&D and Traveller, the systems were released first and the settings came later for the general public, even if the systems reflected things from the settings used by the authors for running and playtesting the game.

Quote from: John MorrowThe claim is that it was a generic SF game, in the same sense that D&D was (and in some ways, still is) a generic Fantasy game.

I understand all that, but the point I'm making is that neither D&D nor Traveller are, in fact, at all 'generic'. Both represent highly specific views of these genres, and it's a historical accident that both of them became so representative in the world of roleplaying.

I grew up with a 70s view of SF (being born in '64), and I knew even then that Traveller touched on only a part of what I'd read. D&D didn't look like anything I'd read at all.

What is also interesting is that Traveller is tied to a form of SF you simply don't get anymore.  Post-Bank's Consider Phlebas you either have literary space opera like the stuff produced by the British school or you have US-style MilSF.

You don't really get the whole "tramp freighter full of scumbags on the edge of an empire" type novels any more.  The only contemporary source I can think of for that kind of stuff is Firefly, but even then Firefly was never really ABOUT a tramp freighter on the edge of an empire.  It was more about the different ways in which people can "belong" to something, whether it's a group, a family, an empire or a set of principles.

Putting on my critical hat, I'd say that that kind of SF was a product of the Cold War when many reasonable people saw these two huge empires clashing with each other and realised they didn't feel any particular loyalty to either one.  The political context having changed, that approach to SF has died off.

Personally my favourite edition of traveller is the New Era one, a much more interesting and dynamic setting than earlier editions.

Quote from: rcsampleOr maybe the question should be "Could you run Traveller using Spycraft 2.0 without a ton of changes?"

You could do it. With minimal pain even if you used SC 2.0 for the core engine and T20 for tech rules and the like that SC 2.0 is missing. It'd be bitchin' to add dramatic conflict rules to Traveller, though integrating the SC classes to the lifepath system might be a bit of a bitch.

There's a Spycraft 2.0 SF setting on the way called Farthest Star. That'd make it even easier.

Alright, nobody where I live is into Traveller.  What would be the best way to get into this thing?

Because hearing snippets like, "Victorian level communications and travel" and "independents on the edge of a great empire" piqued my interest.

Quote from: RedFoxAlright, nobody where I live is into Traveller.  What would be the best way to get into this thing?

Because hearing snippets like, "Victorian level communications and travel" and "independents on the edge of a great empire" piqued my interest.

I would recommend a combination of the "little black books" for rules and the GURPS Traveller core book as an easy to reference setting bible.

http://www.frpgames.com/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=12765

http://www.frpgames.com/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=2103

Total damage: About $40.00.

Quote from: RedFoxAlright, nobody where I live is into Traveller.  What would be the best way to get into this thing?

• Acquire LBBs.
• Roll stuff up.
• Strike other gamers about the head and neck until they get the motherfucking clue.
• Rejoice!

...you could just stop at #1 if you wanted to.

I prefer Megatraveller. It´s the SciFi Gamers RC!
Took me three hours to work in all the errata, and the system loved me back with four years of great gamig.