Quote from: J ArcaneD20 is D&D.

the whole "d20" moniker, and the OGL, are basically from the start a license for people to actualyl sell the aforementioned houserules and pretend that waht they're using is some generic system, instead of what it really is, which is D&D.

What an utter load of crap.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditWhat an utter load of crap.

RPGPundit

Says the guy who goes on about how True20 is better than D&D.

Quote from: J ArcaneSays the guy who goes on about how True20 is better than D&D.

Well, I like it better, but surely that's an subjective thing. Better for me is not the same as better for you- and obviously so in this case.

True20 isn't Dungeons and Dragons, neither are M&M, Conan, d20 Modern, or a host of other games.  They play differently, they sport different mechanics and system considerations, ultimately they're very different games that just use a common resolution mechanic and general system outline.

Quote from: J ArcaneSays the guy who goes on about how True20 is better than D&D.

As out there as it may sound, I gotta say it takes second place to GURPS Supers (possibly the most craptastic excuse for a supers game given inadequate adaptation to a system that is truly unsuited for it and which is even badmouthed by GURPS fans) is better than Mutants and Masterminds (a slick, easy to use system given the proper level of adaptation and easily the most popular supers game currently on the market.)

At any rate, I've discussed this with J Arcane in the past and trying to change his mind on the issue is pretty much futile, so I recommend that various respondants stop trying to do so and address the original poster.

Quote from: 1717 FusilThis is an offshoot of my other thread. As I have been looking over all my games and scaling back, I keep having this thought. Why not just go completely d20 and be done with it. Now on one had I am not a huge fan of  d20 but find it easy to set up and run and for the most part find players. On the otherhand I like other systems better than d20.

For fantasy, right now I am debating either using Arrowflight, RC D&D, C&C or D&D 3.5 to start a campaign. 3 of the 4 are all essentially versions of d20.

I would like to use something like d6 maybe but don't feel like converting a setting or have time to create my own again. I would rather spend time playing though I love to create setting and even rule systems but love playing a game more. I just don't have time to do everything these days. Hence I am starting to see why some people just play d20 games and nothing else.

Well, if it gets you into fun games, then that's as good a reason as any to embrace d20.

Of course, even I, true blue D20 lover that I am, don't see to point in totally swearing off other systems. I do tend to focus more of my time and energy on games that I am currently playing or am likely to play in the near future, there's nothing wrong with keeping your interest and knowledge of other games alive.

So long as it fits your budget, of course.

Quote from: J ArcaneD20 is D&D.

the whole "d20" moniker, and the OGL, are basically from the start a license for people to actualyl sell the aforementioned houserules and pretend that waht they're using is some generic system, instead of what it really is, which is D&D.

Bullshit.

-O

Quote from: obrynBullshit.

-O

So that D20 SRD that consists entirely of D&D and D&D related mechanics is all a horrible illusion, then?

Quote from: C.W.RichesonTrue20 isn't Dungeons and Dragons, neither are M&M, Conan, d20 Modern, or a host of other games.  They play differently, they sport different mechanics and system considerations, ultimately they're very different games that just use a common resolution mechanic and general system outline.

Given that you're a well known game reviewer, I find this statement to be rather surprising.  You can't have read any of those games to closely if you don't see D&D's mechanics shining through clear as day.

Quote from: J ArcaneSo that D20 SRD that consists entirely of D&D and D&D related mechanics is all a horrible illusion, then?

Nope, no illusion.  It contains a good many things, including classes, magic items, and basic character structure and resolution mechanics.

It's when you move from that to saying OGL games are just D&D that you're going batty.  You have actually looked at an OGL game, right?

-O

Quote from: obrynNope, no illusion.  It contains a good many things, including classes, magic items, and basic character structure and resolution mechanics.

It's when you move from that to saying OGL games are just D&D that you're going batty.  You have actually looked at an OGL game, right?

-O

You don't seem to be reading what I am saying at all.  Or at least understanding it.  

I say this because I don't understand what the fuck you just said has anything to do with anything I have said.

Quote from: J ArcaneYou don't seem to be reading what I am saying at all.  Or at least understanding it.  

I say this because I don't understand what the fuck you just said has anything to do with anything I have said.

If you're not saying "OGL and D20 games are just D&D with houserules," perhaps then you could explain it in something more than a one-liner?

QuoteI think D&D is for playing D&D.

Everything else is bad houserules, on the order of the "Star Wars AD&D" conversions you'd find in Usenet in the old days before TSR started suing anyone who had an AD&D website or mailing list.

-O

Quote from: obrynIf you're not saying "OGL and D20 games are just D&D with houserules," perhaps then you could explain it in something more than a one-liner?



-O

There are no rules for anything but D&D in the D20 SRD.  There is no "D20 system".  There is D&D.  

Everything that has come since then is just a lot of crap grafted onto the same basic mechanics to try and make D&D into something else.  

The levels are still there.  The classes are still there.  BAB and base saves are still there.  Skills capped by level are still there.  The feat trees are still there.

Those are good and wonderful mechanics for D&D, but D&D is a world that doesn't resemble anything else, nor does it even resemble reality in any sense.  And that's fine.

But it becomes a problem when you start trying to force it to do things it was never designed to do.  

And yet, thanks to the OGL, a large number of individuals are determined to treat D&D as more generic than it really is, even to the extent of making asinine statements about how there's no reason to use anything but D20 for a new game.

These kinds of houserules were around in the old days before the OGL, but nobody then pretended they were anything but what they were.  Now they have a license and a Wizards marketing ploy to let them do just that.

It's pretentious crap.

Quote from: J ArcaneThere are no rules for anything but D&D in the D20 SRD.  There is no "D20 system".  There is D&D.  

Everything that has come since then is just a lot of crap grafted onto the same basic mechanics to try and make D&D into something else.  

The levels are still there.  The classes are still there.  BAB and base saves are still there.  Skills capped by level are still there.  The feat trees are still there.

Those are good and wonderful mechanics for D&D, but D&D is a world that doesn't resemble anything else, nor does it even resemble reality in any sense.  And that's fine.

But it becomes a problem when you start trying to force it to do things it was never designed to do.  

And yet, thanks to the OGL, a large number of individuals are determined to treat D&D as more generic than it really is, even to the extent of making asinine statements about how there's no reason to use anything but D20 for a new game.

These kinds of houserules were around in the old days before the OGL, but nobody then pretended they were anything but what they were.  Now they have a license and a Wizards marketing ploy to let them do just that.

It's pretentious crap.

It makes more sense when you explain it rather than just drop quips here and there.

I still fundamentally disagree, mind you.  If you don't have fighters, wizards, elves, orcs, kobolds, fireballs, and +1 swords, it's not D&D.

-O

Quote from: J ArcaneThose are good and wonderful mechanics for D&D, but D&D is a world that doesn't resemble anything else, nor does it even resemble reality in any sense.  And that's fine.

This is very important statement.

I wish I could endorse the rest of your post as well, for verily I desire it to be true. However, lacking more than basic familiarity with the matter in hand, I won't.