This game has over 8 million players apparently. Aside from being a license to print money, it's success i woudl imagine most game designers - of all stripes - drool over. So shouldn't it be the best and best selling rpg ever? Also why wouldn't WotC pickit up and use it for D&D as an actual D&D game?
That's a good question, I'm gonna think about it for a while before answering.
What I can tell you is that I love the WoW Rpg, I like to think of it as D&D meets WFRP, sort of.
People who play WoW probably aren't all that interested in pen and paper roleplaying. They already have their form of time-consuming fun, and probably don't need another. Just like I wouldn't care about D&D: The MMORPG.
WoW players don't have the time to eat, sleep or pursue other activities.
To attend p&p games, the players would have to leave their rooms. Their parents probably wouldn't like that...
The WoW game doesn't mirror the computer experience. It uses the D20 system and there's no visual feedback of nude night elves dancing.
Adding numbers by myself? Too. Friggin'. Hard.
Because it's terrible.
The game designers couldn't decide if they wanted it to be a D&D variant, or WoW the TRPG, and as a result, the game serves poorly as both.
By and large the only serviceable thing is the races. Some of the classes do OK, but most are horrid bastard children of their respective counterparts in each game, and generalyl horribly implemented.
The spell casters in particular suffer, as the spell lists are completely half assed and at times even incomplete. Some of them are just D&D spells, but at random levels, others are D&D spells with the names changed, and the spells that actually originate from WoW frequently don't work in any fashion that resembles their WoW counterparts. Large numbers of the WoW game's spells are simply not there. This is all made even more insulting by the fact that the developers didn't even actually bother to to do each class individually, instead, all of WoW's caster classes are treated as subtypes of two base classes, the Arcanist and the Healer, complete with a shared base list with each of the two types, despite the WoW originals not sharing any spells at all.
The engineering system was an intriguing idea, but is so utterly vague as to be almost worthless as a system, leaving most of the actual interpretation to the GM and player to work out.
The blame of course rests squarely on their Blizzard liason, apparently. With the EQ RPG, and even one of the new prestige classes for the WoW RPG in a later sourcebook (the Enchanter), SSS/WW proved they are quite capable at producing a game that captures the feel of their digital originals. But, apparently the folks at Blizzard are big D&D fans, and pushed hard towards the D&D variant angle, and took an extremely hands-on, nitpicky approach to their involvement that resulted in the utter mess of a bad D&D conversion that ultimately saw print.
On top of all this, the game doesn't even include all that much detailed setting information, despite there being reams of lore written for the Warcraft series.
It's a shame, because Warcraft is a great world, and it would've been good fun to see a tabletop adaptation as faithful as the EQ one, as it being the better game in it's original form would no doubt have proved it to be a pretty impressive game in tabletop form.
Instead, they couldn't make up their damn minds what to do with it, and the game ultimately fails.
Which is why it sells for crap. Because it's a crap game.
Quote from: MelanPeople who play WoW probably aren't all that interested in pen and paper roleplaying. They already have their form of time-consuming fun, and probably don't need another. Just like I wouldn't care about D&D: The MMORPG.
I think this is the correct answer. WoW players generally don't care for Pen and Paper RPGs.
Well to be honest I haven't actually tried it, that means run/play, but I gave the pdf's a look and at first sight it didn't seem like a crappy game.
Maybe deeper inspection would reveal its "crappiness".
Quote from: ClaudiusI think this is the correct answer. WoW players generally don't care for Pen and Paper RPGs.
My previous D&D group, and my previous WoW group, were one in the same. The lead designers, and many of the higher-ups at Blizzard, are hardcore D&D fans. There are a number of spells and abilities in WoW ripped straight out of the D&D books.
QuoteWell to be honest I haven't actually tried it, that means run/play, but I gave the pdf's a look and at first sight it didn't seem like a crappy game.
Maybe deeper inspection would reveal its "crappiness".
I had exactly that experience. It looked really cool at first, and I was initially very excited by it, but the more I dug into it, the more I read, and the more I tried to make sense of the mechanics, the more it pissed me off.
There's some gens hiding in there, but there's a lot of crap.
Quote from: MelanPeople who play WoW probably aren't all that interested in pen and paper roleplaying.
4 out of the 5 players in my D&D group right now are hardcore WoW players and are D&D noobs. Of course it's very possible that they might like the WoW rpg better than D&D if they were to try that. The problem is who's running it? Network externalities and all that...
I agree with Melan, and as both a WoW player and roleplayer I can safely say that I'm sick of Azeroth and don't want to further explore it at the gaming table.
J Arcane's got the right of it. There's some infuriatingly fun ideas trapped in the crapulent amber shell that is the WoW tabletop RPG. After struggling for many levels as a goblin tinker, I finally gave up in frustration. Every single one of J Arcane's complaints was something that came up in actual play.
The Warcraft "mythos" is ripe for being made into a proper fantasy TRPG, but the current implementation isn't it.
It's been said, but worth saying again.
P&P RPG'ers that play WoW play WoW because they want a CRPG feel to a favorite RPG that they already have - statistically that'll already be D20. Computer gamers that Play WoW and don't already play RPG's - are just that computer games and they have no interestin playing the P&P version.
Azeroth as a setting is well tuned for a video game. It's tiny. It has clear simplistic factions. It has great evil bosses that threaten the world that can be beaten by low level characters and then some more later. It has a colourful, cartoon feel that translates extremely well to a computer monitor.
None of these tuning decisions are particularly well suited to a good pencil and paper game. The setting also carries the burden of canon, which cuts down on potential purchases from those who just don't like to get into that quagmire -- people who like to play inside canonically defined settings seem to be a minority, however enthusiastic. L5R, for example, is played exclusively by zealots, not fans.
I doubt it matters how good the game itself is -- the problem isn't that WoW players buy it and don't play it but rather that they aren't even tempted to buy it. That tells me the setting is broken.
Quote from: RedFoxJ Arcane's got the right of it. There's some infuriatingly fun ideas trapped in the crapulent amber shell that is the WoW tabletop RPG. After struggling for many levels as a goblin tinker, I finally gave up in frustration. Every single one of J Arcane's complaints was something that came up in actual play.
The Warcraft "mythos" is ripe for being made into a proper fantasy TRPG, but the current implementation isn't it.
Man, you got lured in by the tinker too?
I was so fucking pissed when I went through all that effort to make a character, but saved my gold so I could make up new inventions as the game went on, only to find out that for actual time tables, the game still uses the standard D&D craft skill rules, meaning that, with the massive prices of the engineering stuff, it would take literal
years to build anything.
I was PISSED.
The vast majority of WOW players are gamers, not role-players. They're in it to raid, run 5-man dungeons or do PVP; the lore is secondary to those gameplay interests. It's a game about phat loots, mad XP and stroking your e-cock; even on the Role-Play servers, role-players get shat upon. (I play on two RP servers, so I see this first-hand.) Tabletop gaming is something alien to them, because it doesn't have what they're in WOW to get.
Quote from: HalfjackAzeroth as a setting is well tuned for a video game. It's tiny. It has clear simplistic factions. It has great evil bosses that threaten the world that can be beaten by low level characters and then some more later. It has a colourful, cartoon feel that translates extremely well to a computer monitor.
None of these tuning decisions are particularly well suited to a good pencil and paper game. The setting also carries the burden of canon, which cuts down on potential purchases from those who just don't like to get into that quagmire -- people who like to play inside canonically defined settings seem to be a minority, however enthusiastic. L5R, for example, is played exclusively by zealots, not fans.
I doubt it matters how good the game itself is -- the problem isn't that WoW players buy it and don't play it but rather that they aren't even tempted to buy it. That tells me the setting is broken.
Huh. You've apparently read entirely different setting backgrounds than I have.
Here I always found I appreciated Warcraft's universe so much because there's so little black and white when it comes to the key factions and races. Nobody comes up smelling like roses, neither Alliance or Horde. Every faction's done it's good or bad, and the reasons for the conflicts between the races are as varied as one finds behind conflicts in reality.
The closest to clear evil among the main races are the Undead, but really the majority of the freed Sylvanas' faction just want to be left alone. It's mainly Sylvanas herself, and the nutjobs at the Royal Apothecary Society who're into the "Destroy all life" thing . . .
Quote from: J ArcaneMan, you got lured in by the tinker too?
I was so fucking pissed when I went through all that effort to make a character, but saved my gold so I could make up new inventions as the game went on, only to find out that for actual time tables, the game still uses the standard D&D craft skill rules, meaning that, with the massive prices of the engineering stuff, it would take literal years to build anything.
I was PISSED.
Yup. My breaking point was when I found out just how much gold was involved in building the simplest of mecha-armor frames (see: stuff like goblin Shredders). It literally takes hundreds of thousands of gp to make them, and after I did the calculations I figured out it would take a minimum investment of 3 years of labor to build a simple wooden frame. And there's a bloody prestige class for riding them. *sigh* When I brought up these concerns on the official board at WW, I was told that this was because mecha-armor was too powerful (!!! Then why have it be an option?) and alternately that the designer was considering cutting back the design costs... but hadn't yet, and it'd been years since any official errata.
Of course that was just the straw. It was hopelessly retarded trying to make anything that wasn't a direct-damage weapon with the Tinker rules. I tried making a glue gun that would simulate the effects of an
entangle spell, only with a smaller radius of effect. Should be fairly simple, right? Only there's absolutely no rules or guidelines for doing something so "esoteric."
The books are gorgeous, of course, Clearly a cut above most licensed game products. I have a few, but the only game I ever sat down to play was being run by a GM more interested in recreating the MMORPG, complete with quests taken straight from the beginning maps, than actually being a Tabletop GM.
Now I'm thinking I need to take another look at the various rules and see all this bad shit for myself. I do have to agree that the spell casting classes were a headscratcher for me when I read them...
Of course, for mecha and guns in a magically fueled steampunk fantasy setting I still have Iron Kingdoms...
Not just the WoW rpg; any potential WoW rpg should be the best selling rpg. If this industry can't get that right or can't sell that enough to justify there being an industry then really what's the point?
I'm really not all that jazzed about Azeroth, but think that much of the material that they made for it kicks ass. For example, I really dig how they took AU/AE race level mechanics and applied them to the warcraft setting... which are more immediately portable to D&D.
I had my own "smarter, smaller minotaur" variant in my D&D campaign, using D&D ECL mechanics. As soon as I saw the WoW tauren, I dropped my minotaur and dropped in the tauren.
Magic & Mayhem is also a seriously kick-ass magic supplement, and the rune mage in More Magic & Mayhem is my favorite take on a rune mage under d20, after several lame attempts by various other d20 authors.
Quote from: signoftheserpentNot just the WoW rpg; any potential WoW rpg should be the best selling rpg. If this industry can't get that right or can't sell that enough to justify there being an industry then really what's the point?
Rubbish. WoW has about as much in common with RPG as Lost or CSI have. Both are very popular TV shows. Both aren't the leading RPGs. Popularity in one area doesn't transform to popularity in a different area.
The misleading argument is that WoW is closely related to a tabletop role-playing game. It isn't, by any means. The resemblance is purely superficial. We all know how popular the D20 Diablo was, and WoW basically is Diablo 3.
Quote from: signoftheserpentThis game has over 8 million players apparently. Aside from being a license to print money, it's success i woudl imagine most game designers - of all stripes - drool over. So shouldn't it be the best and best selling rpg ever? Also why wouldn't WotC pickit up and use it for D&D as an actual D&D game?
Simple answer:
It doesn't transfer that well.
We have the books at work - and they just sit there on the shelf.
The customers we have that play
WoW online .....tend to just make up their own version of it with
D20 rules (without buying the official book) or use
HERO,
GURPS or
BESM rules to simulate Wow as best they can.
Its a frickin beautiful book - but kind of expensive.
Heck the second-to-lost copy we sold may have been to "ME" - I was buying it as a Christmas gift for one of my players.
- Ed C.
Quote from: signoftheserpentThis game has over 8 million players apparently. Aside from being a license to print money, it's success i woudl imagine most game designers - of all stripes - drool over. So shouldn't it be the best and best selling rpg ever? Also why wouldn't WotC pickit up and use it for D&D as an actual D&D game?
Because WOW players are already playing WOW. Why the hell do they need to play an RPG to do what they already do online?
This is, incidentally, the reason why it makes no sense at all to try to make RPGs that appeal to hobbyists of any other kind... There's no point in "making RPGs more like fan-fiction writing", or "making RPGs more like competitive crochet", or "making RPGs more like theatresports" or whatever, because any of those people ALREADY HAVE those hobbies to practice.
RPGPundit
Quote from: SosthenesThe misleading argument is that WoW is closely related to a tabletop role-playing game. It isn't, by any means. The resemblance is purely superficial. We all know how popular the D20 Diablo was, and WoW basically is Diablo 3.
100% correct.
(But what I really want to know is, since the hubble telescope has peered into the deepest reaches of space, why don't people wear hubble telescope eyeglasses? If it can see a billion billion billion lightyears into the deepest reaches of space, why can't it help grandma see Mattlock?)
Quote from: malleus arianorum(But what I really want to know is, since the hubble telescope has peered into the deepest reaches of space, why don't people wear hubble telescope eyeglasses? If it can see a billion billion billion lightyears into the deepest reaches of space, why can't it help grandma see Mattlock?)
Because only Bill Gates could afford a pair?
;)
i'm not talking about the mechanics of the video game. I'm talking about the setting. PLenty of gamers play WoW; not every WoW player is a shutin saddo (though they design these games to be played that way, which is unfortuante). By that token there should be a wow rpg on the top of the sales charts constantly.
Quote from: DrewBecause only Bill Gates could afford a pair?
;)
Puh-lease! Bill doesn't have that kind of money, the only one who can afford Hubble eyeglasses is taxpayers like me.
Please note that Hubble eyeglasses may require corrective lenses (not included, some assembly and space travel required.)
Quote from: signoftheserpenti'm not talking about the mechanics of the video game. I'm talking about the setting. PLenty of gamers play WoW; not every WoW player is a shutin saddo (though they design these games to be played that way, which is unfortuante). By that token there should be a wow rpg on the top of the sales charts constantly.
I dunno, if they made a WoW car, would all the roleplayers drive it? If they made a WoW ringtone would all the D&D fans pay $2.99? Would they want to eat WoW flavored cheese snacks? Drink Gnome-tinker favored soda? NO! Obviously not!*
I met some WoW players last week. They were totaly oblivious to D&D. I outright told them, "You guys blow my mind. How can you play a online roleplaying game and not know what a roleplaying game is? For me, I've been playing computer RPGS for decades and it was always about trying to emulate the real thing. For you to not know what D&D is, that's like a Star Trek fan who dresses up like Quark for 8 hours a day but doesn't know about the TV show or the movies or anything Trek.
*but in Korea? YES!
Quote from: signoftheserpenti'm not talking about the mechanics of the video game. I'm talking about the setting. PLenty of gamers play WoW; not every WoW player is a shutin saddo (though they design these games to be played that way, which is unfortuante). By that token there should be a wow rpg on the top of the sales charts constantly.
I don't get the logic behind your statement. Lots of people drive pickups, so a RPG featuring pickups should rule the book stores?
As has been stated many times in this thread, by definition WoW players already play. And most of them don't feel the need to explore stuff missing from the video game experience at the table. And even if they would, it wouldn't be necessary for them to do that in Azeroth. A select few might, and for those the WoW RPG was made. It's rather likely that those already play RPGs, which makes it quite likely that they play D20, from a statistical point of view. So a WoW D20 RPG made perfect sense, as it perfectly captures the intersection of both sets.
There have been products with much better cross-marketing, i.e. with fans who buy everything with the brand name on it. WoW is rather limited to the online experience: most of the participants wouldn't have much time for anything else.
And, to emulate a famous Roman, I'd like to add once again that Warcraft has been a Warhammer rip-off anyways.
QuoteAnd, to emulate a famous Roman, I'd like to add once again that Warcraft has been a Warhammer rip-off anyways.
Originally yes, but at this stage of development, it's not a useful descriptive statement, aabout on par with "D&D is just a Tolkien rip-off".
It does accurately describe the origin story, but doesn't say much about what it's become since then.
Granted. "It started out as a Warhammer rip-off" might have been more accurate. Which certainly helped its popularity, as I think that back in the days some Warhammer fans were flocking to the game...
The world hasn't gotten much better, IMHO, but the "meta-plot" is quite neat. Not that I was particularly fond of that Orc Moses.
Quote from: SosthenesI don't get the logic behind your statement. Lots of people drive pickups, so a RPG featuring pickups should rule the book stores?
pickup trucks are not fantasy worlds. Don't you get the difference?
Quote from: SosthenesGranted. "It started out as a Warhammer rip-off"...
This was my first post on this thread:
Quote...I like to think of it as D&D meets WFRP...
:D
Quote from: signoftheserpentpickup trucks are not fantasy worlds. Don't you get the difference?
Pickup trucks are a bit more popular than fantasy worlds. Just because RPGs started out as fantasy, doesn't mean we can't evolve to convenient yet gas-guzzling means of private transportation...
Most players don't game in the WoW because of the fantasy world. They couldn't care less about all the details and the names. There's nothing that really translates well into a pen & paper RPG, at least not for the majority of the online gamers. Just like playing a game about pickups wouldn't do it for the car owners, so would the gaming style of the usual tabletop RPG be very out of synch for MMORPG participants, especially in the Diablo/WoW vein.
nevermind then. :rolleyes: