Yeah for my The Perception Effect idea I at least gave hunters the means of gathering resources.  Mainly for the major hunter conspiracies set up their bases beyond the mundane perception and treat the land they claim as their own tiny nation.  This process takes centuries of work as they need to set up the infrastructure, set up the logistic, and get their networks going.  

Of course the only reason that things are secret is that it will cause a panic.  When the major conspiracies started they didn't need secrecy as society was full of superstition, but at the time they really couldn't do much.  Now they are capable of handling threats the world had change.  If they reveal themselves now the mundane world leaders would freak out and get in the way, or worst try to end them.

The none major conspiracies are far smaller in scale.  The biggest are secret branches in world governments.  This is followed by terrorists, criminals, and those who secretly work for major world religions.

My personal feeling is that a game should commit to one genre and not try to please everyone. Trying to balance soap opera, political thriller and superhero dynamics at once is a recipe for disaster. (I never liked the political elements in supernatural soap operas, since the writers were clearly out of their depth.)

As others have said before, a WoD competitor will only really succeed if it is written in response to the many perceived flaws in WoD. There are WoD players who are disappointed with certain core aspects of the game. Attracting them is the best bet.

Quote from: Omega;851839Tom Dowd? He worked on 2nd ed Shadowrun and Vampire? Dowd is listed as the one who carried over the dice pool system from Shadowrun over to Vampire. Still alive though I think?

Dowd. Yeah. I thought I heard he died? Well, off to Google for me then.




Hmmm... wiki entry suggests, he may still be among the living.  Dunno... could be undead. Will need to find some garlic to test this...

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;853940My personal feeling is that a game should commit to one genre and not try to please everyone. Trying to balance soap opera, political thriller and superhero dynamics at once is a recipe for disaster. (I never liked the political elements in supernatural soap operas, since the writers were clearly out of their depth.)

As others have said before, a WoD competitor will only really succeed if it is written in response to the many perceived flaws in WoD. There are WoD players who are disappointed with certain core aspects of the game. Attracting them is the best bet.

I think White Wolf games are thematically very focused (and restrictive in a way), but gameplay-wise they are very unfocused. A very frequent complaint the developers get is that people don't know what to do in the game. You won't have that problem in Cthulhu or D&D, because in those games it's pretty much spelled out to you what to should do.

Compare the nWoD core to a game like Ghostories. Ghostories is pretty much the same thing (modern horror), but it pretty much spells out that you are an investigator and the rest of the game is geared towards the player's investigating weird stuff.

Most spy games are geared towards supporting the GM (and the player's) with a prefab base, mechanics for item repair and healing your crew, random mission and NPC generators and prefab missions. White Wolf/Onyx Path rather discusses the themes of the spy genres, like it's an essay, usually in a very angsty way. "You can't trust anyone. Your best friend could be your enemy. Paranoia is everywhere. oooOOOooo!"

This is of no practical help whatsoever. An urban fantasy game should really compete if it would actually support a political game for example. Not only by setting up a setting with different factions, but also by supporting political gameplay just like the Game of Thrones rpg does.

A modern horror game could compete if it would actually support investigation. Because the nWoD core and the God Machine Chronicle don't actually support that a lot. It's a bit opague in how your pc's actually get involved with the supernatural. I don't really know how to put this into words ... anyone else got this too?

Quote from: jan paparazzi;854269A modern horror game could compete if it would actually support investigation. Because the nWoD core and the God Machine Chronicle don't actually support that a lot. It's a bit opague in how your pc's actually get involved with the supernatural. I don't really know how to put this into words ... anyone else got this too?

I seem to recall the storytelling chapter in the World of Darkness Rulebook mentioning a few examples for how PCs would stumble on the supernatural. It's been a long time since I've read it and I don't have the book on me.

Beyond advice for actually running games, what would you say are the biggest flaws of the games? What openings are there to allow competition to flourish?

With this whole OBG mess going it occured to me one other reason there hasnt been any big WW competitors.

Who else would delve into some of the depths of depravity that WW did over the course with some of its books. They really pushed the envelope at times in just how much they could get away with. Which is probably another draw point for the game. It allowed some pretty horrible characters and subject matter. Especially when those Sabbat books came out.

Quote from: Brand55;846625I definitely agree with this. I've never liked how WW seemed to be stuck on the idea that werewolves and spirits had to be joined at the hip. Werewolves as ecowarriors/spirit cops just never fully clicked with me.

Quote from: Orphan81;846626It's one of the best explanations for giving Werewolves extra powers. Vampires throughout popular media and folklore have all kinds of different abilities from Mind Control, to Super Strength and Flight, to Animal Control..

Werewolves well....They turn into either giant killer wolves or normal wolves.

But a game where you just shift into a different form, probably isn't going to be fun. Even Dungeons and Dragons has their Fighter types get all kinds of options..

So you have to find a way to give some cool powers to your Werewolves, and well...the wolf, nature, spirit connection is kind of logical for that avenue..

Unless you go with the idea Werewolves are in fact related to Demons and instead give them options for Infernal style magic and abilities.

Quote from: Snowman0147;846634In the Perception Effect I took a lot of influence from Bloodborne which took a lot of influence from Cthulhu Mythologies.

Some thing having to do with the blood in werewolves.  Think werewolf physical abilities, regeneration capabilities, transforming powers, and stranger things.  Just look at promenthean powers for a example.

Quote from: Brand55;846637One of the werewolves in the last game I ran could summon floods. That's not something any non-WoD player would think sounds like a typical werewolf ability. Even just extending their theme to nature (which is fitting) and the wolf's role as predator, there are a whole host of powers that werewolves can draw on. Shapeshifting, enhanced physical traits, different senses, hunting and tracking powers, regeneration, animal control and communication, speed, leaping, stealth, pack coordination, fear. Honestly, it wouldn't have been hard at all to add on a sort of magic on top of that to enhance them more. You could go with Native American lore or Norse berserkers or something like that, but in my opinion giving werewolves some sort of lunar magic would be more thematic. Instead we got spirit fetishes.

The problem is vampires were already given most of the powers werewolves traditionally have, even the ones vampires usually don't have in other media. And of course mages trump everybody. So it leaves werewolves needing truly bizarre powers that don't really fit the archetype just so they have something to do. That's not an inherent problem with werewolves, it's a problem with the way the game was designed and balanced.

It also probably didn't help that werewolves were ultimately completely reliant on spirits for all of their powers. Not only were spirits needed for fetishes, but werewolves weren't even able to learn Gifts on their own. That part was especially irritating to me when I first read it.

Yeah, I really have to agree that werewolf are shafted compared to vampires in the popularity department. The only solution I can think of would be to create a game similar to Feed except focused around werewolves.

Feed gives two commandments that inform how its themes and rules work: "Vampires Feed" (not necessarily blood, but must feed on something) and "The Vampiric Nature Opposes Some Other Nature" (not necessarily humanity, but still non-vampiric values). Those are the only constants, as otherwise how vampires work is devised by the players or GM.

You'll need such commandments for a werewolf game, whatever their other facets are. Oddly enough, these would be very similar to those above. I would articulate it as: "Lycanthropes Change" (that is, they must transform and run and hunt and otherwise indulge their animal side) and "The Lycanthropic Nature Opposes Some Other Nature." That second one is important. Whether it is man versus beast, flesh versus spirit, civilization versus savagery, or whatever, werewolves are fundamentally torn between two different natures.

I'm going to give lycanthropes the freedom of having strains like vampires do. Developing a strain also translates fairly similarly: you define the rules by which lycanthropy functions in the story. You can even have multiple different strains in the same story a la Dresden Files.

I'll start with some examples of the the basic elements (these are compared in terms of Strong, Neutral and Weak depending on whether you want lycanthropy to be more or less of a curse):

Aging: This may seem like a strange question to ask, but do (these) werewolves age? Whether due to regeneration or something else, certain fiction portrays werewolves as capable of living for centuries or even forever barring violent death.
   Mortal (Neutral): Werewolves age and die like humans do, though signs of aging may manifest differently for them.
Immortal (Strong): Barring violent death, werewolves never die of old age or become decrepit in any way.

Appearance: How well can werewolves pass for human when they are not transformed?
   Undetectable (Strong): Provided they don't do anything obviously supernatural, werewolves can easily pass for human. While they aren't given away by physical appearance, it may be possible for medical examination to reveal irregularities.
Conspicuous (Neutral): While werewolves don't look inhuman, they do look a bit odd. Typical marks include hair in unusual places like the palms or tops of the feet, fingers of equal length, unusual eye color, disturbing to animals, etc. They tend to stick in the memory and those familiar with the strain can readily recognize members.
Monstrous (Weak): Monstrous werewolves are obviously deformed. They can't pass for human even with extensive makeup and bad lighting. Depending on particulars, they may be able to pass this off as birth defects, extreme body modification, or (in the worst cases) pretend to be exotic or deformed animals.
Degenerative (Weak): Werewolves start as Undetectable, but gradually and irreversibly transition through Conspicuous and into Monstrous over a period of time. This is linked to a modified Change Element where the werewolf does not switch between human and wolf forms. Instead, they gradually and irreversibly changed from human to wolf form.

Change: How do werewolves transform? What does it look like and how long does it take? How are their clothes affected?
   Bursting Transformation (Neutral): The change is quick but gruesome, involving the new form exploding out of the old in a shower of blood, gore, shreds of skin and fatty tissue.
Mystic Transformation (Strong): The werewolf quickly shimmers and fades into their new form, and any clothing they were wearing melds with them until they return to their human form.
Stretching Transformation (Weak): The change is long and incredibly painful, involving the werewolf's body stretching and warping into the new form.

Control: How much control does the character's human side have over the wolf side while transformed?
   Amnesiac (Weak): The werewolf has no control over themselves while transformed and has no memory of what happened while transformed. Likewise, while transformed they have little or no memory of their human side and act like the wolf they emulate.
Rage (Neutral): While transformed, the werewolf's mind remains their own, but their faculties are impaired by powerful animal urges.
Full Control (Strong): The werewolf retains their faculties and full control of themselves in any form.
Conscience (Neutral): The werewolf is otherwise an amnesiac after transformation, but their wolf side retains their conscience. While transformed, they will not do anything they would not do as a human.

Transmission: How do werewolves transmit their condition to others? How much control over the spread do they have?
   Airborne Transmission (Weak): These werewolves have a flat chance to infect anyone in their vicinity. Alternatively, the infection is spread through sharing food, drinking water from a werewolf's paw print, or similar. In any case, there is a random chance of infection and the werewolf has no control over this.
Infectious Bite (Neutral): Werewolves may infect others through their teeth or claws, sometimes even in human form. The strain only ever has partial control over this: the strain may be able to avoid accidental infection but can't infect at will or, conversely, infect at will but can't avoid the chance of accidental infection.
Sorcery (Strong): Werewolves are created only through deliberate rituals or curses.
Procreation (Strong): Werewolves reproduce only through sexual reproduction. Lycanthropy in their descendants may be present from birth or remain latent.

Trigger: What causes the werewolf to transform?
   Temporal Trigger (Neutral): The werewolf only transforms at certain times, like from dusk to dawn, on the nights before, during and after a full moon, etc.
Emotional Trigger (Weak): The transformation is triggered by strong emotions, such as anger, fear, or sexual arousal.
At Will (Strong): The transformation is under the full control of the werewolf and requires conscious and deliberated intent to induce.

That's all I can think of at the moment and it's getting late. Hope you find this useful. I welcome any advice or contribution.

This really has me thinking about doing a WoD Retroclone now.

I think in particular the time is becoming right. We had the first wave of OSR hit back around the mid 00's....Now you got guys like me who grew up with World of Darkness hitting their 30's and feeling nostalgia..

That and Onyx Path has shown they're no longer serving the demographic that has an interest in Gothic Punk. On the contrary to Eddy Web's suggestion that it's "So 90s" and Vampire: The Masquerade needs to leave it behind (Hence the announcement of Vampire 4th edition) and think they're will always be a market for a dark dystopic stylish game set in a gothic world on the brink.

Skyscrappers like tombstones, Gargoyles on every building, rain hitting the surface... I don't think that really ever goes out of style.. Throw in the rebellion Punk Ethos as well. When V20 was announced and it was a return to this style, it brought back lots and lots of lapsed players...

Now it seems, Onyx Path is leaving this somewhat behind with their new endeavors.

It may be time for the World of Darkness Retroclones to be created. Capturing what those who grew up with those games loved, and improving on them in the ways each individual creator wants.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;855474I seem to recall the storytelling chapter in the World of Darkness Rulebook mentioning a few examples for how PCs would stumble on the supernatural. It's been a long time since I've read it and I don't have the book on me.

Always with a mind-pretzel. Usually contact with the supernatural (and how the players meet) is by accident in some cumbersome way. Why not say the players are part of a God Machine investigation agency that gives them missions about investigating the God Machine?

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;855474Beyond advice for actually running games, what would you say are the biggest flaws of the games? What openings are there to allow competition to flourish?

1. Arguably you can't play all different monster types in one game. I don't really have a problem with it, because I don't see the need why vampires and werewolves and others would work together.

2. Practicality. A hunter game could benefit from a prefab base with base mechanics, prefab (non-linear) adventures, non-linear campaigns (like the plot point campaigns), random monster generators and random quest generators. White Wolf/Onyx Path has the habit of blathering about the themes and mood of a game. It is a mood creator style of writing that simply doesnt work for me. I like a more concise writing style instead of the angsty padding of the wod. Sum it up quickly and then write about stuff I would actually use in-game. It just isn't very clear.

3. System. Not a dice pool system would draw some people in.

Quote from: Orphan81;855564This really has me thinking about doing a WoD Retroclone now.

I think in particular the time is becoming right. We had the first wave of OSR hit back around the mid 00's....Now you got guys like me who grew up with World of Darkness hitting their 30's and feeling nostalgia..

That and Onyx Path has shown they're no longer serving the demographic that has an interest in Gothic Punk. On the contrary to Eddy Web's suggestion that it's "So 90s" and Vampire: The Masquerade needs to leave it behind (Hence the announcement of Vampire 4th edition) and think they're will always be a market for a dark dystopic stylish game set in a gothic world on the brink.

Skyscrappers like tombstones, Gargoyles on every building, rain hitting the surface... I don't think that really ever goes out of style.. Throw in the rebellion Punk Ethos as well. When V20 was announced and it was a return to this style, it brought back lots and lots of lapsed players...

Now it seems, Onyx Path is leaving this somewhat behind with their new endeavors.

It may be time for the World of Darkness Retroclones to be created. Capturing what those who grew up with those games loved, and improving on them in the ways each individual creator wants.

Well, if you or someone does do a retroclone of WoD I hope it gets opened up with different "race" types: ghouls, liches, mummies, ghosts. I think any of those could be just as interesting or fun or amusing to play as vampires or werewolves.

Quote from: Doughdee222;855570Well, if you or someone does do a retroclone of WoD I hope it gets opened up with different "race" types: ghouls, liches, mummies, ghosts. I think any of those could be just as interesting or fun or amusing to play as vampires or werewolves.

I'd already written up a good portion of Lore for my own take on a "WoD" style world, and the big way to make things different of course is to open it up to cross over and extra supernatural "races". So it's already baked into the setting!

Vampires, Werewolves, Revenants (Which will cover both "Crow" style and "Frankenstein" style), Damned (People who made demonic pacts but escaped from Hell and now are slowly turning into Demons), Ghosts (who are automatically visible to all other Supernatural creatures like in "Being Human") and possibly a few more..

Liches exist in the setting too but are more set up as an antagonistic race, though will probably have rules in a GM section.

The funny thing is, I'd already done a bunch of work fitting this into a more D20 style system since I was worried about legality issues... But I started work on a preliminary Retroclone and making it different enough to avoid copyright issues.

Quote from: Orphan81;855578I'd already written up a good portion of Lore for my own take on a "WoD" style world, and the big way to make things different of course is to open it up to cross over and extra supernatural "races". So it's already baked into the setting!

Vampires, Werewolves, Revenants (Which will cover both "Crow" style and "Frankenstein" style), Damned (People who made demonic pacts but escaped from Hell and now are slowly turning into Demons), Ghosts (who are automatically visible to all other Supernatural creatures like in "Being Human") and possibly a few more..

Liches exist in the setting too but are more set up as an antagonistic race, though will probably have rules in a GM section.

The funny thing is, I'd already done a bunch of work fitting this into a more D20 style system since I was worried about legality issues... But I started work on a preliminary Retroclone and making it different enough to avoid copyright issues.

You may want to look at "Opening The Dark." It's a retroclone of the ST system released under the OGL. While not a perfect duplicate, it does a lot of the work.  https://www.scribd.com/collections/2653023

I would recommend to take a look at Jared Sorenson's Vampire clone too: https://www.scribd.com/doc/229289549/Jared-Sorensen-s-Vampire

Personally, I don't like the ST system, but I'm still curious to see how OSR would handle it.

I was reading through the new releases on Noble Knight Games when I noticed that they had a new game called P.E.R.K. Urban Horror. Apparently they had a successful Kickstarter (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1365674513/perk-horror-rpg-setting/description) about a year ago. I'd never even heard of  the P.E.R.K. system but I thought I'd mention it in case anyone had and was interested in checking it out. What little I've read specifically mentioned werewolves, vampires, and homunculi, though other horror characters (including humans) are supposed to be playable, too.

Quote from: Doughdee222;855570Well, if you or someone does do a retroclone of WoD I hope it gets opened up with different "race" types: ghouls, liches, mummies, ghosts. I think any of those could be just as interesting or fun or amusing to play as vampires or werewolves.

Quote from: Orphan81;855578I'd already written up a good portion of Lore for my own take on a "WoD" style world, and the big way to make things different of course is to open it up to cross over and extra supernatural "races". So it's already baked into the setting!

Vampires, Werewolves, Revenants (Which will cover both "Crow" style and "Frankenstein" style), Damned (People who made demonic pacts but escaped from Hell and now are slowly turning into Demons), Ghosts (who are automatically visible to all other Supernatural creatures like in "Being Human") and possibly a few more..

Liches exist in the setting too but are more set up as an antagonistic race, though will probably have rules in a GM section.

The funny thing is, I'd already done a bunch of work fitting this into a more D20 style system since I was worried about legality issues... But I started work on a preliminary Retroclone and making it different enough to avoid copyright issues.

I think that this would be a fun project to work on, a variety of different creature types for a WoD type of setting. I've worked on a something like that myself a little bit, with cambions and djinn as two different creature types, existing as creatures in much the same way as vampires of werewolves do in the WoD. I haven't fully fleshed them out, but one of these days I would like to.

Tapping into the LARPing community probably was another big boost for White Wolf. Aside from Werewolf, their stuff is overall absurdly easy to costume for overall.

Shadowrun was another that could have pulled that off if FASA hadnt folded.