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Author Topic: Why is this person in the OSR?  (Read 14758 times)

Darrin Kelley

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Re: Why is this person in the OSR?
« Reply #45 on: October 08, 2020, 08:52:08 PM »
I'm not going to deny it. I bought a ton of the D&D 3rd Edition supplements from Avalanche Press. The cover art definitely had quite a bit to do with it. But I also liked the subjects. Nile Empire being my favorite supplement from them.

Over on TBP, they gave Avalanche a lot of grief because of the cover art they used. But I honestly loved it. They were loud and proud. And not afraid to be so.

I miss them. They were fun supplements.
 

Simlasa

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Re: Why is this person in the OSR?
« Reply #46 on: October 08, 2020, 09:15:44 PM »
I'm not even really arguing against the chainmail bikini, just noting that I don't like it but don't want to see an of it censored for the sake of not 'offending' someone.

Art that I like specifically because, (HELLO!), its fantasy. It's supposed to have fantastic elements.
That's always a weak argument, unless you really want your game art full of images of My Little Pony, S&M and furries... because, hey!, it's supposed to have fantastic elements.

It's all just a matter of taste, and not liking certain things is fine as long as I don't try to shove my tastes onto you.

Crusader X

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Re: Why is this person in the OSR?
« Reply #47 on: October 08, 2020, 09:28:33 PM »
The classic AD&D Module, Red Sonja Unchained. The art on the cover of that shows Red Sonja in her scale bikini and wearing jeweled bracers, and several other pieces of ornamental jewelry. So it's not too far of a leap to claim that she's wearing armor enhancing magic items, That she's magically protected.

Heck, in D&D 5e, there is a feature for the Barbarian class that says Barbarians gets bonuses to their AC when they are not wearing armor. 

I don't know if the 5e designers realize this or not, but they just completely justified Red Sonja's bikini.  They've called her bikini "no armor" for years, and 5e rewards her for this choice. :)

Darrin Kelley

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Re: Why is this person in the OSR?
« Reply #48 on: October 08, 2020, 10:01:01 PM »
I don't know if the 5e designers realize this or not, but they just completely justified Red Sonja's bikini.  They've called her bikini "no armor" for years, and 5e rewards her for this choice. :)

Just a little nitpick. Red Sonja isn't a Barbarian. She's more of the Soldier archetype. Which in D&D 5e would make her some kind of Fighter.

In the classic AD&D Red Sonja Unchained module, she was listed as a Fighter.
 

Darrin Kelley

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Re: Why is this person in the OSR?
« Reply #49 on: October 08, 2020, 10:13:46 PM »
That's always a weak argument, unless you really want your game art full of images of My Little Pony, S&M and furries... because, hey!, it's supposed to have fantastic elements.

I wouldn't want the My Little Pony crap anywhere near my game table. There are limits. Definied perameters that a DM is trying to set out for the style of game that they want to present. Just as the players have the right to withdraw if something clashes with their tastes.

I am not an advocate for throwing whatever random stuff into fantasy just because it is fantastic. I have never played that way. And likely wouldn't tolerate the kitchen sink approach if it were thrown my way.

Years ago, I played in a Champions campaign where myself and most of the other players were playing your straight up regular superhero genre characters. Then there was "That Guy" who insisted on playing a cartoon moose. It shattered the immersion. Disrupted the game's atmosphere so much that the campaign couldn't be taken seriously. To the point the other players were having trouble focusing on and actually playing their characters. It sucked. So I quit.

Putting trash like MLP into your bog standard fantasy game to me is just as disruptive and out of place as that damned cartoon moose was.

The scale bikinis are at least actually on topic.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2020, 10:17:48 PM by Darrin Kelley »
 

Crusader X

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Re: Why is this person in the OSR?
« Reply #50 on: October 08, 2020, 10:25:33 PM »
I don't know if the 5e designers realize this or not, but they just completely justified Red Sonja's bikini.  They've called her bikini "no armor" for years, and 5e rewards her for this choice. :)

Just a little nitpick. Red Sonja isn't a Barbarian. She's more of the Soldier archetype. Which in D&D 5e would make her some kind of Fighter.

In the classic AD&D Red Sonja Unchained module, she was listed as a Fighter.

I would say there is no One Right Way when it comes to translating fictional characters into game stats.  Over the years, Drizzt has been "officially" statted as a Ranger, a Ranger/Fighter/Barbarian, a Fighter/Ranger, and also just as a plain old Fighter.  I can certainly see how Sonja can be statted as a Fighter, but I don't see how she MUST always be translated into ONLY being a Fighter.  Sonja statted as a Barbarian in game terms seems perfectly acceptable to me.

Ratman_tf

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Re: Why is this person in the OSR?
« Reply #51 on: October 08, 2020, 11:45:26 PM »
I'm not even really arguing against the chainmail bikini, just noting that I don't like it but don't want to see an of it censored for the sake of not 'offending' someone.

Art that I like specifically because, (HELLO!), its fantasy. It's supposed to have fantastic elements.
That's always a weak argument, unless you really want your game art full of images of My Little Pony, S&M and furries... because, hey!, it's supposed to have fantastic elements.

It's all just a matter of taste, and not liking certain things is fine as long as I don't try to shove my tastes onto you.

And that's fine. I'm just expressing my opinions, too.
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SHARK

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Re: Why is this person in the OSR?
« Reply #52 on: October 09, 2020, 12:17:21 AM »
Greetings!

Hmmm...Well. ;D

All of the whining and gnashing of teeth over how "Unrealistic" or "Sexist" the women warriors or barbarians only wearing "Chainmail Bikinis" for armour can cry some more tears then. Too bad. ;D

ROMAN historians and Generals, such as Tacitus and Julius Caesar wrote that many of the Celtic barbarians and especially the German barbarians that fought against the Roman legions entirely naked, or clothed only in animal furs and ritual jewelry.

And also, for the historians inclined that may be tempted to claim, "Well, barbarians went into battle naked or otherwise without armour because they were primitive and poor, and only their tribal nobles and chieftains could afford to go into battle wearing armour..."

That argument doesn't wash, either. It is partially true, though it is also a fact that many barbarians purposely chose not to wear armour when going into battle for spiritual reasons--because they believed they were spiritually protected by the gods, and also that by going into battle naked, or only wearing blessed animal furs and ritual jewelry, they were demonstrating their courage and prowess, and they were also publicly insulting their armour-clad enemies--and also standing as a living exhortation to their fellow tribal warriors to summon their own courage in the face of the enemy, and reminding them all that it was glorious to die in battle defending their people and their ways.

So, yeah. Have your warriors, men and women alike, going into battle wearing only a fur cloak, a jeweled neck torc, and their weapons. That is not fantasy, unrealistic, or sexist.

It is straight from history and undeniable fact.

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Nerzenjäger

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Re: Why is this person in the OSR?
« Reply #53 on: October 09, 2020, 02:12:34 AM »
I don't always play male characters, but when I do, they wear about as much protection as the female characters...



Women are not men, it's tiresome pounting out a double standard for things that aren't equal to begin with. If they have an issue playing a comic book Red Sonja facsimile, that's fine. I can still play Conan.
"You play Conan, I play Gandalf.  We team up to fight Dracula." - jrients

S'mon

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Re: Why is this person in the OSR?
« Reply #54 on: October 09, 2020, 03:41:55 AM »
Skallagrim (guy on youtube who makes videos about weapons and melee, but not as prissy as Lindybeige) had a demo where his girlfriend (well-endowed) showed how the boob-plate impaired her reach and maneuverability. Seemed legit.

Oh - I 100% agree. The girl in question agreed. The female warriors in her mind were wearing normal real armor, but they had a cheap magical glamour/illusion which made it look like boob-plate to distract their male foes.

I love the 5e D&D Barbarian class which seems specifically designed to let you play Marvel-esque Conan in fur loincloth or Red Sonja in scale bikini, and not get sliced to ribbons in the first battle. It's a fantasy game of course, & this is just as fantastical as the Wizard shooting fire bolts. Boob Plate is arguably even more fantastical - IRL there were times when warriors did fight naked or near-naked - if you can't afford armour, lack of clothing at least gives cleaner wounds & reduces infection risk; the Romans describe naked Celtic warriors. No one IRL ever made boob plate, despite Shadiversity's argument that limited boobage could still be practical.  :)

S'mon

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Re: Why is this person in the OSR?
« Reply #55 on: October 09, 2020, 03:49:37 AM »
I don't know if the 5e designers realize this or not, but they just completely justified Red Sonja's bikini.  They've called her bikini "no armor" for years, and 5e rewards her for this choice. :)

Add Bracers of Defence to a 5e Barbarian and they may have a better AC than the Fighter or Paladin. :D As well as having more hp & taking half damage in Rage... definitely my favourite 5e class (see avatar). :D

jeff37923

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Re: Why is this person in the OSR?
« Reply #56 on: October 09, 2020, 07:38:18 AM »
Ah, screw it.

Crazy person issues diatribe. Film at 11.

I expressed my exasperation, not why I was exasperated. My bad.

There is a lot of wrong in this thread, the largest Gross Conceptual Error to me being that the OSR is a club that you have to be a defined member in the OSR to be a part of the OSR. Not long ago, it was an advertising gimmick on modules to define that product from being a part of the endless churn of RennFaire Seattle settings. The OSR is still a very nebulous concept.

The second largest Gross Conceptual Error is that the screeching and throwing of feces by Internet Shit Gibbons has any meaning. Stephanie Baudelaire does not speak for the OSR, nor is she a recognized spokesperson for the OSR, and I sincerely doubt that anyone would have heard of her if she hadn't screeched and thrown feces. The more you read of her published stuff (which looks like it is nothing but porns), the more crazy she appears. So why are we paying attention to her at all?

The question should not be why is this crazy bitch in the OSR? It is why are we giving this crazy bitch any of our time? She reacted to Venger Satanis' trolling, big fucking deal.
"Meh."

Spinachcat

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Re: Why is this person in the OSR?
« Reply #57 on: October 09, 2020, 07:49:39 PM »
I support Trump.
I support the OSR.
That does not mean the OSR supports Trump...or Biden...or anyone.

It's just weird to try to assign politics to a game genre, but hey 2020. And tenbones is right, absolutely anything will be said and done by these SJW freaks to damage our hobby unless there's significant and LOUD pushback.

But that said...the OSR is pro-capitalism.

OSR fans make stuff and sell it to other OSR fans who choose to buy or not, and perhaps become OSR publishers themselves. It's an energetic marketplace, and thus obviously pro-capitalism. See Kickstarter and DriveThru for more details.

Even the point of free PDFs on DriveThruRPG is to build a marketing database so you can sell your next PDFs and PODs. Even that "free sharing" is built on "the first one is free" capitalist marketing model.

There is no "Socialist OSR", even among hobbyists who just post stuff for free. Even they are contributing to the marketplace of ideas which become expressed as for-profit products by someone else. 

Mercurius

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Re: Why is this person in the OSR?
« Reply #58 on: October 10, 2020, 01:51:10 PM »
I support Trump.
I support the OSR.
That does not mean the OSR supports Trump...or Biden...or anyone.

It's just weird to try to assign politics to a game genre, but hey 2020. And tenbones is right, absolutely anything will be said and done by these SJW freaks to damage our hobby unless there's significant and LOUD pushback.

But that said...the OSR is pro-capitalism.

OSR fans make stuff and sell it to other OSR fans who choose to buy or not, and perhaps become OSR publishers themselves. It's an energetic marketplace, and thus obviously pro-capitalism. See Kickstarter and DriveThru for more details.

Even the point of free PDFs on DriveThruRPG is to build a marketing database so you can sell your next PDFs and PODs. Even that "free sharing" is built on "the first one is free" capitalist marketing model.

There is no "Socialist OSR", even among hobbyists who just post stuff for free. Even they are contributing to the marketplace of ideas which become expressed as for-profit products by someone else. 

Huh? Selling stuff within a capitalist system doesn't make one "pro-capitalism," as if to be a true socialist one has to only barter or give stuff away. It doesn't work like that. We all have to work within the system we're in, so socialist organizations will sell tee-shirts and stuff to pay the bills.

Not to mention your post displays the usual lack of understanding of socialism, which isn't inherently against money or commerce. It simply means that the means of production are, to some extent, publicly owned. A socialist system might involve profits being redistributed. Most importantly, it isn't either/or, but a matter of degree.

VisionStorm

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Re: Why is this person in the OSR?
« Reply #59 on: October 10, 2020, 02:48:09 PM »
I support Trump.
I support the OSR.
That does not mean the OSR supports Trump...or Biden...or anyone.

It's just weird to try to assign politics to a game genre, but hey 2020. And tenbones is right, absolutely anything will be said and done by these SJW freaks to damage our hobby unless there's significant and LOUD pushback.

But that said...the OSR is pro-capitalism.

OSR fans make stuff and sell it to other OSR fans who choose to buy or not, and perhaps become OSR publishers themselves. It's an energetic marketplace, and thus obviously pro-capitalism. See Kickstarter and DriveThru for more details.

Even the point of free PDFs on DriveThruRPG is to build a marketing database so you can sell your next PDFs and PODs. Even that "free sharing" is built on "the first one is free" capitalist marketing model.

There is no "Socialist OSR", even among hobbyists who just post stuff for free. Even they are contributing to the marketplace of ideas which become expressed as for-profit products by someone else. 

Huh? Selling stuff within a capitalist system doesn't make one "pro-capitalism," as if to be a true socialist one has to only barter or give stuff away. It doesn't work like that. We all have to work within the system we're in, so socialist organizations will sell tee-shirts and stuff to pay the bills.

Not to mention your post displays the usual lack of understanding of socialism, which isn't inherently against money or commerce. It simply means that the means of production are, to some extent, publicly owned. A socialist system might involve profits being redistributed. Most importantly, it isn't either/or, but a matter of degree.

A socialist system could also potentially be a free market where the means of production are owned by the workers or self-employed individuals, as proposed in mutualism, for example. Part of the problem with this is the conflation of any type of commerce with capitalism (which is more specifically about private ownership of the means of production, for profit ventures, accumulation of capital, wage labor/slavery, etc.). So that selling your own RPG books as a self-employed individual with full control of your own products without being beholden to a corporation somehow becomes necessarily pro-capitalism, as opposed to just engaging in commerce as people have done throughout history in many parts of the world before capitalism, as its understood in the modern sense became a thing.