TheRPGSite

Stephanie Baudelaire is a trans woman, and a proud activist in the causes of Leftist Politics and Antifascism/BLM.

Which is all fine and dandy, if you're a Democrat.

But then this is what he goes on to say, "The OSR Officially Endorses Leftism." See https://www.osrelfgame.com/post/nazis-not-welcome (https://www.osrelfgame.com/post/nazis-not-welcome)

Who is this and why should I care?

Is this the same trans Stephanie that worked for Frog God Games by doing a cover and then backstabbed Frog God Games?

Absolutely everyone who loves Old School RPGs is welcome in the OSR.

Even Twitter freaks and the imaginary Naughty Nutzis who live in their heads.

Not only are they welcome in the OSR, they're welcome to post here!!

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on October 06, 2020, 06:54:11 PM
But then this is what he goes on to say, "The OSR Officially Endorses Leftism." See https://www.osrelfgame.com/post/nazis-not-welcome (https://www.osrelfgame.com/post/nazis-not-welcome)

I thought it was hilarious.  It has to have been written by a 11 year old.

"Right now, the United States of America, the country where I live, is run by Nazis. No other conclusion would be logical, because they believe in Nazi ideas, like forcing people to live in prison camps where they are tortured and killed. Anybody who thinks that doing that is ever a good idea is a Nazi."


What

What a nutbag.

This person can point out the nazis and drive them out. 

Ok sure.  Conservative = Nazi.  I get it.  So people you disagree with = Nazi.  And Nazis should not have fun or get to play Games.

Agree or die.  Man, that's getting more and more common lately.  And it's not conservative, it's radical.  In my lifetime Democrats and Republicans went to church together, drank beer together, were friends.  Now?  Different = evil, agree or become a nonperson.

Hit the road, freak show.  D&D doesn't need your whack job dogma.

If her account is the same as linked in the post - she specifically calls out Venger Satanis as a Nazi...

https://www.reddit.com/r/elfgame/comments/j585o6/addressing_the_controversy/

LOL that whole diatribe is laughable. But I expect nothing less from such a lunatic.

Venger recently claimed that the OSR officially endorses Donald Trump for re-election, as what is obviously a stupid publicity stunt. So this is obviously a response to that, implying that anyone who supports Donald Trump is a Nazi.

Thankfully their post got locked on r/osr.

QuoteNo other conclusion would be logical, because they believe in Nazi ideas, like forcing people to live in prison camps where they are tortured and killed.

At least they understand the #CCP are Communists Nazis.

QuoteNo, the OSR does not endorse Donald Trump for president.

And they could have stopped there...

QuoteWe here at 2Stoners wish upon him all the Judgment of God, which it would seem is being done already.

...but they wanted to show everyone what a wretched individual they are.

I wonder if they actually endorse Christianity too, or simply use it rhetorically when convenient.

But who is that mysterious Nazi whom they don't name, but whose identity we probably either already know or can easily find out if we really want to see a Nazi talk about things?

Apparently it's... (https://archive.is/EdjUf#selection-1809.0-1809.198)

QuoteI just didn't want to put the Nazi's name on my own website. He's a Twitter troll who goes by "Venger Satanis". A full list of the games he makes can be found via Google. I don't recommend his Blog.

His blog (https://vengersatanis.blogspot.com/).

That Venger fellow has a really dull blog. "How to DM like a fucking boss," and similar publications, and lots of adventure modules with rough paintings of scantily-clad slim women with fake breasts. He seems to be trying very very hard for attention. But then, so is the transwoman. I suppose one day they'll settle down together and adopt a kidnapped Rwandan child.

Why does old Drumpf have to do with rolling dice, eating snacks and telling tall stories?

I may not like Trump at all, but calling him a Nazi is fucking insane.

Quote from: arcanuum on October 07, 2020, 01:40:29 AM
I may not like Trump at all, but calling him a Nazi is fucking insane.

Calling someone a Nazi is what you do when you cannot articulate a single reason why their actions are questionable. I think Trump is a super easy target for these types of mentally ill morons simply because he never apologizes for anything he does, which enrages them beyond belief.

Fortunately, nobody owns "the OSR". This goes for the right-wingers too, but especially for these entryist fucks, who largely came in with Zak and his crew around 2010-2011 (although they don't like to talk about this anymore).

What's galling is that in its infancy around 2004-2008, old-school gaming was a fairly conservative place, but it had considerable ideological diversity - people just didn't care much about your politics as long as you liked old D&D the proper way. Nobody would try to destroy you for being a lib, or homosexual, or whatever. These people, on the other hand, want to decide what you are allowed to believe, and who is allowed to exist in the online scene. Fuck no.

Gentrifiers, get out!

Quote from: Melan on October 07, 2020, 11:30:24 AM
Fortunately, nobody owns "the OSR". This goes for the right-wingers too, but especially for these entryist fucks, who largely came in with Zak and his crew around 2010-2011 (although they don't like to talk about this anymore).

You better defend "the OSR" then. Because this is what the locusts do - they find where you are, and eat your ass out of ideological house and home. If "the OSR" has any value as a brand or nomenclature for ease of finding content under the umbrella of "OSR" in terms of RPG's - do what you can to defend it.

Because the barbarians are at the gate.

Quote from: Melan on October 07, 2020, 11:30:24 AMWhat's galling is that in its infancy around 2004-2008, old-school gaming was a fairly conservative place, but it had considerable ideological diversity - people just didn't care much about your politics as long as you liked old D&D the proper way. Nobody would try to destroy you for being a lib, or homosexual, or whatever. These people, on the other hand, want to decide what you are allowed to believe, and who is allowed to exist in the online scene. Fuck no.

INVADERS, get out!

Fixed that for you.

Not only that Tenbones, but once the invaders are out we need to keep them out.  Seriously the future of entertainment is going to be about gatekeeping, or get swallowed by sjws.

I made the mistake of reading the rules to the Elf Game.  I got down to ability checks and it seemed totally broken. 
I find it hard to believe this fellow worked for WoTC or SJ Games.

Anyway it must be really weird living in a country run by Nazis and being able to express your discontent so freely.   :-P

The proper response to people like this is to ridicule them mercilessly and remind them to take their meds.

Quote from: arcanuum on October 07, 2020, 01:40:29 AM
I may not like Trump at all, but calling him a Nazi is fucking insane.

How so?  The man was quite active in supporting the National Socialist German Worker's Party during the 1930's and 40s.

Seriously though, to quote an article I read:

"You can be a total xenophobic racist male chauvinist bastard and still not be a fascist."

Or Nazi in this case.

The sooner the Left learns to stop crying 'wolf' at puppy dogs, and the words have meanings, the sooner people might take what they say more seriously.

Wasn't there a community called SwordDream already created for SJWs who played OSR games? This person should go there to find a like-minded echo chamber. The OSR is too broad to belong or have any political ideology. Venger's declaration that the OSR endorsesTruml is similarly obnoxious.

Quote from: wmarshal on October 07, 2020, 05:08:17 PM
Wasn't there a community called SwordDream already created for SJWs who played OSR games? This person should go there to find a like-minded echo chamber. The OSR is too broad to belong or have any political ideology. Venger's declaration that the OSR endorsesTruml is similarly obnoxious.

Yeah that was a thing, IIRC someone immediately made a game under their banner that was almost indistinguishable from what would be standard alt right talking points but managed to do it in such a fashion that you really couldn't tell if it was a piss take on the whole "sword dream" or some oblivious leftist failing to see the parallels.

Thank Goodness that the OSR has come out against Nazis!

But why are WotC and the Catholic church so quiet on the subject?  I think we all know the answer.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on October 07, 2020, 12:03:10 AM
His blog (https://vengersatanis.blogspot.com/).

It is hard to take seriously anyone who says "Trump is the way" and mentions Shapiro--the dumb person's smart man--in the same posting.

EDIT: But reading through VS's first blog, at least, I don't see "Nazi." I see nationalism and right-wingism, but not Nazism. There's a disturbing number of left-wingers who associate anything to the right of center with Nazism, which I don't condone, even if I don't like VS's political ideology.

But to bring this back to the OSR, I think the only way to go is big tent. To say "the OSR endorses Donald Trump" is absurd, but so is accusing all conservatives of being Nazis. It shouldn't be so radical to suggest that gaming has traditionally been a place where a diverse range of political ideologies can come to the table and have a good time together. If you're rah-rahing Trump and trying to exclude lefties, or calling everyone who disagrees with you a Nazi, you're doing it wrong.

For those of us in the rest of the world, please keep your American poltics out of the OSR.

It's juvenile and puerile and makes you all look fucking insane, and it's become tedious for the rest of us.

VS isn't even conservative. He's a lifelong liberal who voted for $Hillary—who's basically a neocon, granted, but point being he was a Democrat who voted blue no matter who. He's just not a very deep thinker, and recently left the Democrats like a year ago (from what I gathered from Inappropriate Characters) due to all the Trump derangement and riot-supporting, woke-pandering insanity. He's probably just starting explore thinkers from the other side now he's willing to expand his horizons a bit and it's getting overexcited. Plus wasn't the thing about the OSR supporting Trump a joke or something?

Anyways, these people are insane, what more can be said? They're self-important cultural imperialists who love to whine about CoLoNiZaTiOn while simultaneously using terms like Latin-X, which is an anglocentric rebranding of the Spanish language promoted by people who think they know better than those Spanish speaking savages. They come and they colonize, and they look down on and try to expunge those who don't conform while purporting to be champions of DiVeRsItY and InClUsIoN, but being the complete opposite. Which is what their intrusion into this hobby is all about. They're colonizers coming to tell us what's what. And those who don't like it better get out of their iNcLuSiVe hobby, which they've claimed only for themselves.

Quote from: VisionStorm on October 07, 2020, 09:30:39 PM
VS isn't even conservative. He's a lifelong liberal who voted for $Hillary—who's basically a neocon, granted, but point being he was a Democrat who voted blue no matter who. He's just not a very deep thinker, and recently left the Democrats like a year ago (from what I gathered from Inappropriate Characters) due to all the Trump derangement and riot-supporting, woke-pandering insanity. He's probably just starting explore thinkers from the other side now he's willing to expand his horizons a bit and it's getting overexcited. Plus wasn't the thing about the OSR supporting Trump a joke or something?

Anyways, these people are insane, what more can be said? They're self-important cultural imperialists who love to whine about CoLoNiZaTiOn while simultaneously using terms like Latin-X, which is an anglocentric rebranding of the Spanish language promoted by people who think they know better than those Spanish speaking savages. They come and they colonize, and they look down on and try to expunge those who don't conform while purporting to be champions of DiVeRsItY and InClUsIoN, but being the complete opposite. Which is what their intrusion into this hobby is all about. They're colonizers coming to tell us what's what. And those who don't like it better get out of their iNcLuSiVe hobby, which they've claimed only for themselves.

What do these so-called conservatives conserve? It's just "20 years ago"-liberalism. I hope to god you don't equate voting Republican with being a "deep thinker".

Ah, screw it.

Crazy person issues diatribe. Film at 11.

Quote from: Snowman0147 on October 07, 2020, 12:19:09 PM
Not only that Tenbones, but once the invaders are out we need to keep them out.  Seriously the future of entertainment is going to be about gatekeeping, or get swallowed by sjws.

Naturally. I accepted this long ago. But that's why 2nd Order thinking kicks in... What is the natural outcome of SJW's taking over as Gatekeepers? Collapse. Get Woke Go Broke after all.

That's why its important for people that are creators to be ready to pounce. People need to be ready to rebuild whatever happens next right now.

Quote from: jeff37923 on October 08, 2020, 06:57:23 AM
Ah, screw it.

Crazy person issues diatribe. Film at 11.

If it wasn't for that, 90% of the "discussion" here would be dead.

The rest would be focused on "OSR: Best Thing Ever?  Yes or Why It is".

Not that any other forums appear to be all that better.  Just different politics and darlings.

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on October 08, 2020, 12:52:14 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on October 08, 2020, 06:57:23 AM
Ah, screw it.

Crazy person issues diatribe. Film at 11.

If it wasn't for that, 90% of the "discussion" here would be dead.

The rest would be focused on "OSR: Best Thing Ever?  Yes or Why It is".

Not that any other forums appear to be all that better.  Just different politics and darlings.

Let's talk about Alignment for a hojilionth time instead!

Everyones real aligjment is Chaotic when dinners late. End of discussion.

Quote from: Nerzenjäger on October 08, 2020, 06:14:42 AMWhat do these so-called conservatives conserve? It's just "20 years ago"-liberalism. I hope to god you don't equate voting Republican with being a "deep thinker".

These days anyone who's an old school Liberal instead of a raging lunatic, or who doesn't toe the party line is "conservative". I don't think of anyone who thinks in terms of these labels or the two-party duopoly as a "deep thinker".

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on October 08, 2020, 12:52:14 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on October 08, 2020, 06:57:23 AM
Ah, screw it.

Crazy person issues diatribe. Film at 11.

If it wasn't for that, 90% of the "discussion" here would be dead.

The rest would be focused on "OSR: Best Thing Ever?  Yes or Why It is".

Not that any other forums appear to be all that better.  Just different politics and darlings.

Pretty much, unfortunately. Though, occasionally a topic will come up that transcends specific systems or involves games or editions other than OD&D or the OSR. But when that isn't the case (most of the time) it's usually crickets or SJWs and the OSR. And I normally discuss only one of those things.

Apparently everything that can ever be said about RPGs, other than constant praise for the OSR, has already been said. Until someone wants to crap on 5e or something. Then things get interesting (and repetitive, since that's already been said as well :P).

Quote from: Nerzenjäger on October 08, 2020, 06:14:42 AM
What do these so-called conservatives conserve? It's just "20 years ago"-liberalism.

We conserve "40 years ago" gaming. 
Back when character sheets had a box marked "sex" and you filled it in with 'male', 'female' or 'yes please'.
Back when orcs were just orcs, not stand-ins for some oppressed minority.
Back when women wore bikini chain mail, if they wore anything at all.
...

Quote from: DocJones on October 08, 2020, 03:15:44 PM

Quote from: Nerzenjäger on October 08, 2020, 06:14:42 AM
What do these so-called conservatives conserve? It's just "20 years ago"-liberalism.

We conserve "40 years ago" gaming. 
Back when character sheets had a box marked "sex" and you filled it in with 'male', 'female' or 'yes please'.
Back when orcs were just orcs, not stand-ins for some oppressed minority.
Back when women wore bikini chain mail, if they wore anything at all.
...

My 5e campaign character template:

CHARACTER TEMPLATE
Name:       
Race:    Sex:
Class:
Level:  1st    Background:
Proficiency Bonus: +2    Experience Points: 0/300
Armour Class:            Hit Points:
Strength:   
Dexterity:
Constitution:
Intelligence:
Wisdom:
Charisma:
Proficient Saves:
Proficient Skills:
Weapons:
Other Equipment:
Money:
Special Abilities:

Orcs IMC:
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-pbNJkm8Jq98/Xz_Wl2KsXvI/AAAAAAAAQNk/eYHPfIBR7DsRalSNOaHAkezlwI5v7fJcgCLcBGAsYHQ/s200/Orc.png)

Female NPCs IMC:
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-mwwOaRwKoa4/X1VN30ucq6I/AAAAAAAAQSU/Dfu96AVe5Jo3doRogxuINLllRwIr9MGYwCLcBGAsYHQ/w200-h200/Jyrdani%2Bof%2BJiyyd.png) (https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-gQdRRlI7Z4g/X3cIaUSY7MI/AAAAAAAAQhA/OYVglr7UgzcaF1m-5CgHa1E3-Clpq3B3gCLcBGAsYHQ/w200-h200/Lastwall%2BPaladin.png) (https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-VGv_T_L9rJg/X3g7juenWFI/AAAAAAAAQiQ/poU8AwiDhIcbmYdQi9wabNASpbK9GLT7wCLcBGAsYHQ/w200-h200/Shukura.png)

I like my campaign.    ;D

I'm pretty sharply left-leaning but this person does not speak for me.
Ever since I discovered Runequest I've preferred 'monsters' with personalities and variation... that vs. 'evil' races, which seemed dumb to me.
The huge boobs in chainmail bikinis also put me off... partially because I felt they were there to entice me and that was insulting to some degree (like using sexy models to sell power tools and farming equipment... same thing).

Still, I dislike censorship even more. If the author wants the big-boobed woman in a chainmail bikini on the cover of his book, she should be there. I don't want the world I live in to be the ideological equivalent of Gerber's baby food.

Quote from: Simlasa on October 08, 2020, 04:56:08 PM
The huge boobs in chainmail bikinis also put me off... partially because I felt they were there to entice me and that was insulting to some degree (like using sexy models to sell power tools and farming equipment... same thing).

One of the girls at my D&D table in college claimed that the boob-plate wasn't real. However, most of the female warriors in D&D LOOKED like they were wearing it, but it was just a cheap glamour to distract stupid male foes.

Skallagrim (guy on youtube who makes videos about weapons and melee, but not as prissy as Lindybeige) had a demo where his girlfriend (well-endowed) showed how the boob-plate impaired her reach and maneuverability. Seemed legit.

Quote from: Simlasa on October 08, 2020, 05:35:00 PM
Skallagrim (guy on youtube who makes videos about weapons and melee, but not as prissy as Lindybeige) had a demo where his girlfriend (well-endowed) showed how the boob-plate impaired her reach and maneuverability. Seemed legit.

Oh - I 100% agree. The girl in question agreed. The female warriors in her mind were wearing normal real armor, but they had a cheap magical glamour/illusion which made it look like boob-plate to distract their male foes.

Oh, OK... I didn't take the meaning of 'glamour' there.

Quote from: S'mon on October 08, 2020, 04:32:03 PM
I like my campaign.    ;D

I like your campaign too.

This is a real life demonstration of how good bikini chainmail is:

Oh God, Not the chainmail bikini argument again. You people can like what you want, but I don't want my fantasy elf games reduced to a bland, inoffensive, sepia of "realistic" mush.
We've all heard the "practical" arguments a zillion times. No one is being illuminated by it.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 08, 2020, 07:21:46 PM
Oh God, Not the chainmail bikini argument again. You people can like what you want, but I don't want my fantasy elf games reduced to a bland, inoffensive, sepia of "realistic" mush.
We've all heard the "practical" arguments a zillion times. No one is being illuminated by it.

Oh sure - I just thought the idea of the boob-plate being an intentional distraction by the Amazonian warriors (without giving up protection) to be amusing.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 08, 2020, 07:21:46 PM
Oh God, Not the chainmail bikini argument again. You people can like what you want, but I don't want my fantasy elf games reduced to a bland, inoffensive, sepia of "realistic" mush.
We've all heard the "practical" arguments a zillion times. No one is being illuminated by it.

But...why don't you want your female characters to wear realistic armor, like this?

Surely, your character would be well protected, and able to move and fight completely without problems with such good protection.

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/25/40/61/2540618a138be01f6e0bc0e565e6489d.jpg)

I'm a left leaning person. Center-left. But my tastes in fantasy carry a strong appreciation for cheesecake art. Art that I like specifically because, (HELLO!), its fantasy. It's supposed to have fantastic elements.

I personally don't want bland "realistic" fantasy or fantasy art. I don't give a rip about "practicality" of armor. It's fantasy, my fantasy. And if I want people running around with +11 bangles of invinclble armor. Then by god, that's what I'll have!

I'm a huge Red Sonja fan. And proud of it. Scale bikini and all!

I want the days of classic TSR D&D fantasy art to return. Because it was so evocative. Because it did play to my imagination.

The bland "realistic" stuff doesn't appeal to me at all.

I'm a fan of the OSR. Because I believe the OSR encourages imagination. And people's own interpretation of what they want their fantasy gaming to be. And I'll always be for that. Letting imagination take flight.

The classic AD&D Module, Red Sonja Unchained. The art on the cover of that shows Red Sonja in her scale bikini and wearing jeweled bracers, and several other pieces of ornamental jewelry. So it's not too far of a leap to claim that she's wearing armor enhancing magic items, That she's magically protected.

I don't always play male characters, but when I do, they wear about as much protection as the female characters...

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/3c/b6/0e/3cb60ea1269b48fd7f017210f014278d.jpg)

I'm not going to deny it. I bought a ton of the D&D 3rd Edition supplements from Avalanche Press. The cover art definitely had quite a bit to do with it. But I also liked the subjects. Nile Empire being my favorite supplement from them.

Over on TBP, they gave Avalanche a lot of grief because of the cover art they used. But I honestly loved it. They were loud and proud. And not afraid to be so.

I miss them. They were fun supplements.

I'm not even really arguing against the chainmail bikini, just noting that I don't like it but don't want to see an of it censored for the sake of not 'offending' someone.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley on October 08, 2020, 07:51:58 PMArt that I like specifically because, (HELLO!), its fantasy. It's supposed to have fantastic elements.

That's always a weak argument, unless you really want your game art full of images of My Little Pony, S&M and furries... because, hey!, it's supposed to have fantastic elements.

It's all just a matter of taste, and not liking certain things is fine as long as I don't try to shove my tastes onto you.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley on October 08, 2020, 07:51:58 PM
The classic AD&D Module, Red Sonja Unchained. The art on the cover of that shows Red Sonja in her scale bikini and wearing jeweled bracers, and several other pieces of ornamental jewelry. So it's not too far of a leap to claim that she's wearing armor enhancing magic items, That she's magically protected.

Heck, in D&D 5e, there is a feature for the Barbarian class that says Barbarians gets bonuses to their AC when they are not wearing armor. 

I don't know if the 5e designers realize this or not, but they just completely justified Red Sonja's bikini.  They've called her bikini "no armor" for years, and 5e rewards her for this choice. :)

Quote from: Crusader X on October 08, 2020, 09:28:33 PM
I don't know if the 5e designers realize this or not, but they just completely justified Red Sonja's bikini.  They've called her bikini "no armor" for years, and 5e rewards her for this choice. :)

Just a little nitpick. Red Sonja isn't a Barbarian. She's more of the Soldier archetype. Which in D&D 5e would make her some kind of Fighter.

In the classic AD&D Red Sonja Unchained module, she was listed as a Fighter.

Quote from: Simlasa on October 08, 2020, 09:15:44 PM
That's always a weak argument, unless you really want your game art full of images of My Little Pony, S&M and furries... because, hey!, it's supposed to have fantastic elements.

I wouldn't want the My Little Pony crap anywhere near my game table. There are limits. Definied perameters that a DM is trying to set out for the style of game that they want to present. Just as the players have the right to withdraw if something clashes with their tastes.

I am not an advocate for throwing whatever random stuff into fantasy just because it is fantastic. I have never played that way. And likely wouldn't tolerate the kitchen sink approach if it were thrown my way.

Years ago, I played in a Champions campaign where myself and most of the other players were playing your straight up regular superhero genre characters. Then there was "That Guy" who insisted on playing a cartoon moose. It shattered the immersion. Disrupted the game's atmosphere so much that the campaign couldn't be taken seriously. To the point the other players were having trouble focusing on and actually playing their characters. It sucked. So I quit.

Putting trash like MLP into your bog standard fantasy game to me is just as disruptive and out of place as that damned cartoon moose was.

The scale bikinis are at least actually on topic.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley on October 08, 2020, 10:01:01 PM

Quote from: Crusader X on October 08, 2020, 09:28:33 PM
I don't know if the 5e designers realize this or not, but they just completely justified Red Sonja's bikini.  They've called her bikini "no armor" for years, and 5e rewards her for this choice. :)

Just a little nitpick. Red Sonja isn't a Barbarian. She's more of the Soldier archetype. Which in D&D 5e would make her some kind of Fighter.

In the classic AD&D Red Sonja Unchained module, she was listed as a Fighter.

I would say there is no One Right Way when it comes to translating fictional characters into game stats.  Over the years, Drizzt has been "officially" statted as a Ranger, a Ranger/Fighter/Barbarian, a Fighter/Ranger, and also just as a plain old Fighter.  I can certainly see how Sonja can be statted as a Fighter, but I don't see how she MUST always be translated into ONLY being a Fighter.  Sonja statted as a Barbarian in game terms seems perfectly acceptable to me.

Quote from: Simlasa on October 08, 2020, 09:15:44 PM
I'm not even really arguing against the chainmail bikini, just noting that I don't like it but don't want to see an of it censored for the sake of not 'offending' someone.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley on October 08, 2020, 07:51:58 PMArt that I like specifically because, (HELLO!), its fantasy. It's supposed to have fantastic elements.

That's always a weak argument, unless you really want your game art full of images of My Little Pony, S&M and furries... because, hey!, it's supposed to have fantastic elements.

It's all just a matter of taste, and not liking certain things is fine as long as I don't try to shove my tastes onto you.

And that's fine. I'm just expressing my opinions, too.

Greetings!

Hmmm...Well. ;D

All of the whining and gnashing of teeth over how "Unrealistic" or "Sexist" the women warriors or barbarians only wearing "Chainmail Bikinis" for armour can cry some more tears then. Too bad. ;D

ROMAN historians and Generals, such as Tacitus and Julius Caesar wrote that many of the Celtic barbarians and especially the German barbarians that fought against the Roman legions entirely naked, or clothed only in animal furs and ritual jewelry.

And also, for the historians inclined that may be tempted to claim, "Well, barbarians went into battle naked or otherwise without armour because they were primitive and poor, and only their tribal nobles and chieftains could afford to go into battle wearing armour..."

That argument doesn't wash, either. It is partially true, though it is also a fact that many barbarians purposely chose not to wear armour when going into battle for spiritual reasons--because they believed they were spiritually protected by the gods, and also that by going into battle naked, or only wearing blessed animal furs and ritual jewelry, they were demonstrating their courage and prowess, and they were also publicly insulting their armour-clad enemies--and also standing as a living exhortation to their fellow tribal warriors to summon their own courage in the face of the enemy, and reminding them all that it was glorious to die in battle defending their people and their ways.

So, yeah. Have your warriors, men and women alike, going into battle wearing only a fur cloak, a jeweled neck torc, and their weapons. That is not fantasy, unrealistic, or sexist.

It is straight from history and undeniable fact.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: VisionStorm on October 08, 2020, 08:20:16 PM
I don't always play male characters, but when I do, they wear about as much protection as the female characters...

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/3c/b6/0e/3cb60ea1269b48fd7f017210f014278d.jpg)

Women are not men, it's tiresome pounting out a double standard for things that aren't equal to begin with. If they have an issue playing a comic book Red Sonja facsimile, that's fine. I can still play Conan.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper on October 08, 2020, 05:38:09 PM

Quote from: Simlasa on October 08, 2020, 05:35:00 PM
Skallagrim (guy on youtube who makes videos about weapons and melee, but not as prissy as Lindybeige) had a demo where his girlfriend (well-endowed) showed how the boob-plate impaired her reach and maneuverability. Seemed legit.

Oh - I 100% agree. The girl in question agreed. The female warriors in her mind were wearing normal real armor, but they had a cheap magical glamour/illusion which made it look like boob-plate to distract their male foes.

I love the 5e D&D Barbarian class which seems specifically designed to let you play Marvel-esque Conan in fur loincloth or Red Sonja in scale bikini, and not get sliced to ribbons in the first battle. It's a fantasy game of course, & this is just as fantastical as the Wizard shooting fire bolts. Boob Plate is arguably even more fantastical - IRL there were times when warriors did fight naked or near-naked - if you can't afford armour, lack of clothing at least gives cleaner wounds & reduces infection risk; the Romans describe naked Celtic warriors. No one IRL ever made boob plate, despite Shadiversity's argument that limited boobage could still be practical.  :)

Quote from: Crusader X on October 08, 2020, 09:28:33 PM
I don't know if the 5e designers realize this or not, but they just completely justified Red Sonja's bikini.  They've called her bikini "no armor" for years, and 5e rewards her for this choice. :)

Add Bracers of Defence to a 5e Barbarian and they may have a better AC than the Fighter or Paladin. :D As well as having more hp & taking half damage in Rage... definitely my favourite 5e class (see avatar). :D

Quote from: jeff37923 on October 08, 2020, 06:57:23 AM
Ah, screw it.

Crazy person issues diatribe. Film at 11.

I expressed my exasperation, not why I was exasperated. My bad.

There is a lot of wrong in this thread, the largest Gross Conceptual Error to me being that the OSR is a club that you have to be a defined member in the OSR to be a part of the OSR. Not long ago, it was an advertising gimmick on modules to define that product from being a part of the endless churn of RennFaire Seattle settings. The OSR is still a very nebulous concept.

The second largest Gross Conceptual Error is that the screeching and throwing of feces by Internet Shit Gibbons has any meaning. Stephanie Baudelaire does not speak for the OSR, nor is she a recognized spokesperson for the OSR, and I sincerely doubt that anyone would have heard of her if she hadn't screeched and thrown feces. The more you read of her published stuff (which looks like it is nothing but porns), the more crazy she appears. So why are we paying attention to her at all?

The question should not be why is this crazy bitch in the OSR? It is why are we giving this crazy bitch any of our time? She reacted to Venger Satanis' trolling, big fucking deal.

I support Trump.
I support the OSR.
That does not mean the OSR supports Trump...or Biden...or anyone.

It's just weird to try to assign politics to a game genre, but hey 2020. And tenbones is right, absolutely anything will be said and done by these SJW freaks to damage our hobby unless there's significant and LOUD pushback.

But that said...the OSR is pro-capitalism.

OSR fans make stuff and sell it to other OSR fans who choose to buy or not, and perhaps become OSR publishers themselves. It's an energetic marketplace, and thus obviously pro-capitalism. See Kickstarter and DriveThru for more details.

Even the point of free PDFs on DriveThruRPG is to build a marketing database so you can sell your next PDFs and PODs. Even that "free sharing" is built on "the first one is free" capitalist marketing model.

There is no "Socialist OSR", even among hobbyists who just post stuff for free. Even they are contributing to the marketplace of ideas which become expressed as for-profit products by someone else. 

Quote from: Spinachcat on October 09, 2020, 07:49:39 PM
I support Trump.
I support the OSR.
That does not mean the OSR supports Trump...or Biden...or anyone.

It's just weird to try to assign politics to a game genre, but hey 2020. And tenbones is right, absolutely anything will be said and done by these SJW freaks to damage our hobby unless there's significant and LOUD pushback.

But that said...the OSR is pro-capitalism.

OSR fans make stuff and sell it to other OSR fans who choose to buy or not, and perhaps become OSR publishers themselves. It's an energetic marketplace, and thus obviously pro-capitalism. See Kickstarter and DriveThru for more details.

Even the point of free PDFs on DriveThruRPG is to build a marketing database so you can sell your next PDFs and PODs. Even that "free sharing" is built on "the first one is free" capitalist marketing model.

There is no "Socialist OSR", even among hobbyists who just post stuff for free. Even they are contributing to the marketplace of ideas which become expressed as for-profit products by someone else. 

Huh? Selling stuff within a capitalist system doesn't make one "pro-capitalism," as if to be a true socialist one has to only barter or give stuff away. It doesn't work like that. We all have to work within the system we're in, so socialist organizations will sell tee-shirts and stuff to pay the bills.

Not to mention your post displays the usual lack of understanding of socialism, which isn't inherently against money or commerce. It simply means that the means of production are, to some extent, publicly owned. A socialist system might involve profits being redistributed. Most importantly, it isn't either/or, but a matter of degree.

Quote from: Mercurius on October 10, 2020, 01:51:10 PM

Quote from: Spinachcat on October 09, 2020, 07:49:39 PM
I support Trump.
I support the OSR.
That does not mean the OSR supports Trump...or Biden...or anyone.

It's just weird to try to assign politics to a game genre, but hey 2020. And tenbones is right, absolutely anything will be said and done by these SJW freaks to damage our hobby unless there's significant and LOUD pushback.

But that said...the OSR is pro-capitalism.

OSR fans make stuff and sell it to other OSR fans who choose to buy or not, and perhaps become OSR publishers themselves. It's an energetic marketplace, and thus obviously pro-capitalism. See Kickstarter and DriveThru for more details.

Even the point of free PDFs on DriveThruRPG is to build a marketing database so you can sell your next PDFs and PODs. Even that "free sharing" is built on "the first one is free" capitalist marketing model.

There is no "Socialist OSR", even among hobbyists who just post stuff for free. Even they are contributing to the marketplace of ideas which become expressed as for-profit products by someone else. 

Huh? Selling stuff within a capitalist system doesn't make one "pro-capitalism," as if to be a true socialist one has to only barter or give stuff away. It doesn't work like that. We all have to work within the system we're in, so socialist organizations will sell tee-shirts and stuff to pay the bills.

Not to mention your post displays the usual lack of understanding of socialism, which isn't inherently against money or commerce. It simply means that the means of production are, to some extent, publicly owned. A socialist system might involve profits being redistributed. Most importantly, it isn't either/or, but a matter of degree.

A socialist system could also potentially be a free market where the means of production are owned by the workers or self-employed individuals, as proposed in mutualism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutualism_(economic_theory)), for example. Part of the problem with this is the conflation of any type of commerce with capitalism (which is more specifically about private ownership of the means of production, for profit ventures, accumulation of capital, wage labor/slavery, etc.). So that selling your own RPG books as a self-employed individual with full control of your own products without being beholden to a corporation somehow becomes necessarily pro-capitalism, as opposed to just engaging in commerce as people have done throughout history in many parts of the world before capitalism, as its understood in the modern sense became a thing.

Quote from: VisionStorm on October 10, 2020, 02:48:09 PM
A socialist system could also potentially be a free market where the means of production are owned by the workers or self-employed individuals, as proposed in mutualism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutualism_(economic_theory)), for example. Part of the problem with this is the conflation of any type of commerce with capitalism (which is more specifically about private ownership of the means of production, for profit ventures, accumulation of capital, wage labor/slavery, etc.). So that selling your own RPG books as a self-employed individual with full control of your own products without being beholden to a corporation somehow becomes necessarily pro-capitalism, as opposed to just engaging in commerce as people have done throughout history in many parts of the world before capitalism, as its understood in the modern sense became a thing.

Nothing really to add but agreement. So many problems arise from extremism on either side of any issue, which is often based in misunderstanding and only fuels the fire. This obviously pertains to any discussions around RPGs, D&D, and the OSR, with "traditionalists" and "wokists" offering extreme views that aren't interested in compromise or understanding.

Similarly with "traditionalism" vs "wokism" as it pertains to RPGs, D&D, and the OSR. There are ways to incorporate the best of both worlds, while jettisoning the worst.

*Edit* Huge headache and my thoughts are not coherent.

Quote from: Spinachcat on October 09, 2020, 07:49:39 PM

That does not mean the OSR supports Trump...or Biden...or anyone.

Agreed.

QuoteThere is no "Socialist OSR", even among hobbyists who just post stuff for free. Even they are contributing to the marketplace of ideas which become expressed as for-profit products by someone else.

I disagree. The OSR isn't inherently any form of economic system. It can exist in any economic system. I do not agree with your claim that other people capitalizing products produced for free by socialists makes them not socialists. For example, North Korea produces the Type 73 Machine Gun. Iran has taken what they did and commodified it. Just because Iran is copying their stuff and making it for-profit, this doesn't suddenly make North Korea capitalist. That's nonsense. Similarly, if someone is producing free OSR products and someone else swipes it like the Iranians and starts to sell it, that doesn't make the socialist produced stuff suddenly capitalist. That's not how that works. You don't magically transform the nature of something by swiping it and selling it.

The OSR is not a political party or an economic system.

Quote from: wmarshal on October 07, 2020, 05:08:17 PM
Wasn't there a community called SwordDream already created for SJWs who played OSR games? This person should go there to find a like-minded echo chamber. The OSR is too broad to belong or have any political ideology. Venger's declaration that the OSR endorsesTruml is similarly obnoxious.

Just so you're aware, my "The OSR endorses Trump" blog post was 90% trolling the radical left / SJWs currently invading our hobby.  Obviously, the OSR ranges throughout the political spectrum - which is probably a good thing.  Yes, it brought me a modicum of attention (buy Cha'alt: Fuchsia Malaise!), but more importantly it shined a light on the cancel culture cretins who'd love nothing more than to drive out anyone to the right of Joe Biden. 

And now several of them have exposed themselves.  Here's the latest: http://www.tabletoproleplaying.com/the-osr-is-anti-fascist/

Here's a slightly milder one: https://theotherside.timsbrannan.com/2020/10/the-official-music-of-osr-is-run-dmc.html

And this is a brief, re-worded version of the Elf Game blog: https://thac0rpg.blogspot.com/2020/10/thac0-stands-in-support-of-elf-blog.html

I expect to see more in the next few days.

VS

Quote from: VisionStorm on October 07, 2020, 09:30:39 PM
VS isn't even conservative. He's a lifelong liberal who voted for $Hillary—who's basically a neocon, granted, but point being he was a Democrat who voted blue no matter who. He's just not a very deep thinker, and recently left the Democrats like a year ago (from what I gathered from Inappropriate Characters) due to all the Trump derangement and riot-supporting, woke-pandering insanity. He's probably just starting explore thinkers from the other side now he's willing to expand his horizons a bit and it's getting overexcited. Plus wasn't the thing about the OSR supporting Trump a joke or something?

Anyways, these people are insane, what more can be said? They're self-important cultural imperialists who love to whine about CoLoNiZaTiOn while simultaneously using terms like Latin-X, which is an anglocentric rebranding of the Spanish language promoted by people who think they know better than those Spanish speaking savages. They come and they colonize, and they look down on and try to expunge those who don't conform while purporting to be champions of DiVeRsItY and InClUsIoN, but being the complete opposite. Which is what their intrusion into this hobby is all about. They're colonizers coming to tell us what's what. And those who don't like it better get out of their iNcLuSiVe hobby, which they've claimed only for themselves.

I've entertained multiple political perspectives over the years.  Regarding the 2016 election, I unfortunately bought-into the mainstream media's depiction of Trump.  Back then, the radical-left hadn't invaded our RPG hobby (that I was aware of).  About 6 months into Trump's presidency, I started to see the fake news media for what they were and walked away from the Democrat party. However, I still consider myself an old-school liberal who leans conservative these days; not a leftist.

VS

Quote from: VengerSatanis on October 12, 2020, 03:43:47 PM
Here's a slightly milder one: https://theotherside.timsbrannan.com/2020/10/the-official-music-of-osr-is-run-dmc.html

Friend of an IRL friend of mine. She's just as left wing as Tim, but unlike him she's happily wise enough never to get deranged over politics - or anything really.

Greetings!

SIGH. All of these left wing Marxist idiots. They are so alien to me. Their whole world view is a fucked up trainwreck. Regardless of whatever degree Left these people happen to be, the constant crying and hysteria about "Nazis and Fascists!" is more than a bit melodramatic. The Leftists constant Reeing about Fascism and Trump being a Nazi, is nutty, terribly wrong and malignant. On some level, I find the petty viciousness and hysteria of it distinctly offensive.

I know all about Fascism, and Nazis. I have a large personal library of books covering everything in World War II, with many books read on the Nazis, how they came to power, their policies, government, philosophy, and the Nazi war machine. One of my formal specialties in college was America during the 1930's and World War II.

These Leftist demagogues and Marxist sheep don't have a clue what real Nazis are. If anything, it is the Marxists and the Left that are embracing a soul-destroying, authoritarian philosophy that seeks to crush and dominate modern human society.

My own father was a decorated veteran of World War II, and he fought against--and killed real Nazis. These hysterical Marxists can fuck right off. They are the people today embracing authoritarianism, and tyranny. They are the people that are supporting revolution, rebellion, and persecuting anyone and everyone that disagrees with their fucked up, poisonous ideology. They are Marxists. They need to realize how evil and tyrannical they are. It is the goddamned Marxists that need to be driven from our hobby and from our society.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: VengerSatanis on October 12, 2020, 03:43:47 PMHere's a slightly milder one: https://theotherside.timsbrannan.com/2020/10/the-official-music-of-osr-is-run-dmc.html

Doesn't that dude post on this board? What an absolute faggot...these people have no shame.

Just what we need. More people throwing shoes at each other.

Quote from: VengerSatanis on October 12, 2020, 03:43:47 PM

Quote from: wmarshal on October 07, 2020, 05:08:17 PM
Wasn't there a community called SwordDream already created for SJWs who played OSR games? This person should go there to find a like-minded echo chamber. The OSR is too broad to belong or have any political ideology. Venger's declaration that the OSR endorsesTruml is similarly obnoxious.

Just so you're aware, my "The OSR endorses Trump" blog post was 90% trolling the radical left / SJWs currently invading our hobby.  Obviously, the OSR ranges throughout the political spectrum - which is probably a good thing.  Yes, it brought me a modicum of attention (buy Cha'alt: Fuchsia Malaise!), but more importantly it shined a light on the cancel culture cretins who'd love nothing more than to drive out anyone to the right of Joe Biden. 

And now several of them have exposed themselves.  Here's the latest: http://www.tabletoproleplaying.com/the-osr-is-anti-fascist/

Here's a slightly milder one: https://theotherside.timsbrannan.com/2020/10/the-official-music-of-osr-is-run-dmc.html

And this is a brief, re-worded version of the Elf Game blog: https://thac0rpg.blogspot.com/2020/10/thac0-stands-in-support-of-elf-blog.html

I expect to see more in the next few days.

VS

Dude in the first link comes across like a massive fucking tryhard. "I done fought fascists in mah hobby circles before, did I mention I was a marine!", I'll take shit that never happened for 500 please. It's amazing the amount of derangement these people suffer over a man who's barely done anything as president, for fucks sake most of his positions are things the mainstream liberals have supported in the last 30 years.

Quote from: VengerSatanis on October 12, 2020, 03:43:47 PM
And now several of them have exposed themselves.  Here's the latest: http://www.tabletoproleplaying.com/the-osr-is-anti-fascist/
VS

Wait, so he'll fight a fascist, nazi but will work with a communist? Guess he doesn't like working with amateurs? In Old School Russia, dice roll you.

Who are all these self-identifying nazi, white supremacists, fascists, whatevers in the OSR? Or is it a case of this....

Quote from: SHARK on October 12, 2020, 05:07:43 PM
Greetings!

SIGH. All of these left wing Marxist idiots. They are so alien to me. Their whole world view is a fucked up trainwreck. Regardless of whatever degree Left these people happen to be, the constant crying and hysteria about "Nazis and Fascists!" is more than a bit melodramatic. The Leftists constant Reeing about Fascism and Trump being a Nazi, is nutty, terribly wrong and malignant. On some level, I find the petty viciousness and hysteria of it distinctly offensive.

I know all about Fascism, and Nazis. I have a large personal library of books covering everything in World War II, with many books read on the Nazis, how they came to power, their policies, government, philosophy, and the Nazi war machine. One of my formal specialties in college was America during the 1930's and World War II.

These Leftist demagogues and Marxist sheep don't have a clue what real Nazis are. If anything, it is the Marxists and the Left that are embracing a soul-destroying, authoritarian philosophy that seeks to crush and dominate modern human society.

My own father was a decorated veteran of World War II, and he fought against--and killed real Nazis. These hysterical Marxists can fuck right off. They are the people today embracing authoritarianism, and tyranny. They are the people that are supporting revolution, rebellion, and persecuting anyone and everyone that disagrees with their fucked up, poisonous ideology. They are Marxists. They need to realize how evil and tyrannical they are. It is the goddamned Marxists that need to be driven from our hobby and from our society.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

This.

Speaking of chainmail bikini wear, does anyone remember Alias's chain shirt from Azure Bonds? And the ONLY reason she wore it was because it was massively enchanted (the ridiculous cleavage might as well have been behind steel plate). And even her friend Dragonbait disliked it.

The guy proclaiming to be a so called Marine is full of crap. Somehow in the late 70s to early 80s he not only met and gamer with every race. He somehow met gay and Transpeople. Gay people were not openly claiming their sexuality at the time because they could lose their jobs if not worse. The second yeah I am sure Transpeople existed at the time said no one ever.

Bunch of revisionist BS in the name of becoming woke.

Quote from: DocJones on October 08, 2020, 07:10:30 PM

Quote from: S'mon on October 08, 2020, 04:32:03 PM
I like my campaign.    ;D

I like your campaign too.

This is a real life demonstration of how good bikini chainmail is:

Heh, on a channel by a woman who probably thinks the views aren't because she's good looking.

Quote from: sureshot on October 13, 2020, 02:10:04 PM
Gay people were not openly claiming their sexuality at the time because they could lose their jobs if not worse. The second yeah I am sure Transpeople existed at the time said no one ever.

Not necessarily BS at all. It depends on where you were and what crowd you ran with. Club people, artists, theater crowd... plenty of gay folks and gender bending. IIRC the Stonewall Riots in NYC were in 1969. Dog Day Afternoon, a mainstream movie featuring a main character who is trans, was 1975. Renee Richards was allowed to play as a woman in the U.S. Open in 1977, two years after her transition surgery.

Quote from: Simlasa on October 14, 2020, 10:15:13 AM
Not necessarily BS at all. It depends on where you were and what crowd you ran with. Club people, artists, theater crowd... plenty of gay folks and gender bending. IIRC the Stonewall Riots in NYC were in 1969. Dog Day Afternoon, a mainstream movie featuring a main character who is trans, was 1975. Renee Richards was allowed to play as a woman in the U.S. Open in 1977, two years after her transition surgery.

I am not saying their was none.

How many over the years can you count on one hand at least in the early 70s and 80s of playing rpgs that you saw or knew were gay or trans. In my neck of the woods it was late 90s to early 2000s and imo transpeople were not know to rpgs at least until the last decade or so. The way the guy in the blog makes it sound it was that gay and trans people were extremely common when they were in the early start of rpgs the exception and not the norm.

Quote from: sureshot on October 14, 2020, 11:17:17 PMHow many over the years can you count on one hand at least in the early 70s and 80s of playing rpgs that you saw or knew were gay or trans.

I wasn't playing RPGs in the 70s. But it's not like gay and trans people were some big secret at that time.

QuoteIn my neck of the woods...

Yeah, in YOUR neck of the woods.
I grew up in a small Mormon town in the desert. There weren't, as far as I'm aware, any gay/trans kids in my high school group (though there rumors about the waterboy for the football team... and the entire girls volleyball team). But if someone in college at the time were to tell me there were in his, I wouldn't be inclined to assume he was a liar. I met gay folks pretty soon after getting to college and it WAS weird to me, for a moment.
By the 90s I was working with gay people and saw what I assume were trans people at the gay bars in Vegas. Why would I assume NONE of them played RPGs?

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on October 06, 2020, 06:54:11 PM
Stephanie Baudelaire is a trans woman, and a proud activist in the causes of Leftist Politics and Antifascism/BLM.

Which is all fine and dandy, if you're a Democrat.

But then this is what he goes on to say, "The OSR Officially Endorses Leftism." See https://www.osrelfgame.com/post/nazis-not-welcome (https://www.osrelfgame.com/post/nazis-not-welcome)

No different than http://vengersatanis.blogspot.com/2020/10/osr-backs-trump.html (http://vengersatanis.blogspot.com/2020/10/osr-backs-trump.html) from this blog... http://vengersatanis.blogspot.com/ (http://vengersatanis.blogspot.com/)

You all are ok with the OSR being defined as Pro-Trump (which it is not) but the moment someone states that the OSR is anti-NAZI you all get up in arms.

And maybe you should ask what their preferred pronoun to be used is, out of respect?

Quote from: fixable on October 15, 2020, 02:31:21 AM
You all are ok with the OSR being defined as Pro-Trump (which it is not) but the moment someone states that the OSR is anti-NAZI you all get up in arms.

Well, it was Venger saying it and he's only second to Pundit in his willingness to say outrageous shit to get attention... so, not taken seriously?

Quote from: Simlasa on October 15, 2020, 02:40:42 AM

Quote from: fixable on October 15, 2020, 02:31:21 AM
You all are ok with the OSR being defined as Pro-Trump (which it is not) but the moment someone states that the OSR is anti-NAZI you all get up in arms.

Well, it was Venger saying it and he's only second to Pundit in his willingness to say outrageous shit to get attention... so, not taken seriously?

What is said is said. It is there to be read. If you want to interpret that as not to be taken seriously that is your choice. To state that that post was in jest... well, read that post, and read the others on the blog.

The posts are there to be read by all. I'm not making a judgement other than what was written by the post linked above.
To remind:
http://vengersatanis.blogspot.com/2020/10/fighting-back.html
http://vengersatanis.blogspot.com/2020/10/osr-backs-trump.html

To continue, I don't give a flying f*ck what this person thinks on their blog.

The point is that if you want to go on sending vitriol against the idea of someone using their blog to promote their political stance, then realize that it is happening on both sides. That others are using their blogs to promote your own favorable points of view.

The clear evidence is provided above.

Quote from: fixable on October 15, 2020, 02:31:21 AM

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on October 06, 2020, 06:54:11 PM
Stephanie Baudelaire is a trans woman, and a proud activist in the causes of Leftist Politics and Antifascism/BLM.

Which is all fine and dandy, if you're a Democrat.

But then this is what he goes on to say, "The OSR Officially Endorses Leftism." See https://www.osrelfgame.com/post/nazis-not-welcome (https://www.osrelfgame.com/post/nazis-not-welcome)

No different than http://vengersatanis.blogspot.com/2020/10/osr-backs-trump.html (http://vengersatanis.blogspot.com/2020/10/osr-backs-trump.html) from this blog... http://vengersatanis.blogspot.com/ (http://vengersatanis.blogspot.com/)

You all are ok with the OSR being defined as Pro-Trump (which it is not) but the moment someone states that the OSR is anti-NAZI you all get up in arms.

And maybe you should ask what their preferred pronoun to be used is, out of respect?

No, we're not "all ok with the OSR being defined as Pro-Trump" and if you had bothered to read the thread before posting your idiotic assertions you'd know that VS's blog post was actually brought up and criticized by several posters here—since the first freaking page—and that VS himself commented on the topic a few pages back to clarify that his blog was a troll job (quoted below).

What is said is said. It is there to be read.

But you go on believing your false equivalences based on fantasy.

Quote from: VengerSatanis on October 12, 2020, 03:43:47 PM

Quote from: wmarshal on October 07, 2020, 05:08:17 PM
Wasn't there a community called SwordDream already created for SJWs who played OSR games? This person should go there to find a like-minded echo chamber. The OSR is too broad to belong or have any political ideology. Venger's declaration that the OSR endorsesTruml is similarly obnoxious.

Just so you're aware, my "The OSR endorses Trump" blog post was 90% trolling the radical left / SJWs currently invading our hobby.  Obviously, the OSR ranges throughout the political spectrum - which is probably a good thing.  Yes, it brought me a modicum of attention (buy Cha'alt: Fuchsia Malaise!), but more importantly it shined a light on the cancel culture cretins who'd love nothing more than to drive out anyone to the right of Joe Biden. 

And now several of them have exposed themselves.  Here's the latest: http://www.tabletoproleplaying.com/the-osr-is-anti-fascist/

Here's a slightly milder one: https://theotherside.timsbrannan.com/2020/10/the-official-music-of-osr-is-run-dmc.html

And this is a brief, re-worded version of the Elf Game blog: https://thac0rpg.blogspot.com/2020/10/thac0-stands-in-support-of-elf-blog.html

I expect to see more in the next few days.

VS

Quote from: fixable on October 15, 2020, 02:31:21 AM
You all are ok with the OSR being defined as Pro-Trump (which it is not) but the moment someone states that the OSR is anti-NAZI you all get up in arms.

I would like to note that the term 'Nazi' has been redefined from 'member or wannabe member of the NSDAP' down to 'people that leftists don't like'.

So, yeah, I have some slight issues with tossing the 'Nazi' term around so casually.

Quote from: fixable on October 15, 2020, 02:31:21 AM
And maybe you should ask what their preferred pronoun to be used is, out of respect?

No.

Quote from: fixable on October 15, 2020, 02:31:21 AM
You all are ok with the OSR being defined as Pro-Trump (which it is not) but the moment someone states that the OSR is anti-NAZI you all get up in arms.

One person said that the OSR was pro-Trump (a man beloved by the left right up until the day he announced he was running for President against them. A person who had been award many times by the black community for his support of them. A man that has been pro-gay marriage for years) which is not accurate considering the OSR is made up a wide assortment of poeple.

The other person said that the country is run by Nazies, That conservative is just another name for a Nazi, and that all Nazies need to be driven from the hobby.

So one is an inaccurate statement that can be easily debunked and calmly debated if you so wished. The other accused large numbers of people of being pure evil and not deserving of existing (in the the hobby at the very least).

To try and equate the two statements as anywhere never close to being the same is pure bullshit.

I don't believe the OSR is political. And I would prefer it not to be. My personal politics are an aspect of life I prefer to leave on the shelf while I am gaming. Such a stance promotes game group harmony in the best was possible to me. Leaving real life on the shelf while the group escapes into fantasy for the afternoon.

My last game group? My GM was very conservative and pro-Trump. I am on the other side. But we didn't bring politics or political arguements to the game table. And even when those discussions did come up. they were on a clear cut break and did not interrupt the game.

I've always thought that one of the biggest strengths of the RPG hobby has, is to bring people of different backgrounds and beliefs together. That it creates an atmosphere of common ground like few other things do.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley on October 15, 2020, 06:00:41 PM
My last game group? My GM was very conservative and pro-Trump. I am on the other side. But we didn't bring politics or political arguements to the game table.

That's pretty much my situation in my current local group. Every once in a while the GM (who can be a bit... outspoken) will say something regarding real world events that I disagree with, but I'll either try to steer it toward common ground or back to the game. We've had a few Players (mostly women) take offense and leave... but it's generally been a small but stable group.

My groups, we never ever discuss politics at the game table - gaming is for gaming! We may discuss it a bit if meeting for a social drink down the pub etc, and people do Facebook posts of course.

I guess you might get some idea of my views from the fact that I run Primeval Thule as a pretty traditional swords & sorcery setting, and that my main Forgotten Realms game is set in the 1e, 1980s era. So you get a 'liberal for the 1980s' vibe off my stuff, which an SJW might take offence to but normally left-liberal people don't find intolerable.

I have recently been running Albie Fiore's very 1970s Best of White Dwarf D&D adventures Halls of Tizun Thane and The Lichway in my Primeval Thule game, and I apologised in advance last session for the implied rape scene in The Lichway. Not that I expected the (normally left-liberal) female player to take offence, but as written it is pretty cheesy. And I had remembered my (normally left-liberal) mate Pemerton complaining about it on EN World not too long ago.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley on October 08, 2020, 10:01:01 PM

Quote from: Crusader X on October 08, 2020, 09:28:33 PM
I don't know if the 5e designers realize this or not, but they just completely justified Red Sonja's bikini.  They've called her bikini "no armor" for years, and 5e rewards her for this choice. :)

Just a little nitpick. Red Sonja isn't a Barbarian. She's more of the Soldier archetype. Which in D&D 5e would make her some kind of Fighter.

In the classic AD&D Red Sonja Unchained module, she was listed as a Fighter.

Slightly off topic

Having worked on some REH stuff before Id say Sonja in the comics is a fighter with high DEX and abysmally low WIS or INT. Take your pick. Much like Conan in his early years she tended to get herself into alot of the bad situations she ended up in. Often from drinking and starting apocalyptic bar fights. Also like Conan, she has a bit of a glass jaw.

Alot of armour just slows her down. Which for such a person reliant on mobility, is a death sentence. That and she was very aware her revealing attire both worked as a distraction to some foes, and caused others to underestimate what a threat she was. Oft to their demise. Combine that with some sort of divine protection and she had even less reason to armour up.

In the short run comic I was working with though she actually ditched the bikini for leather armour late in the run before the series was cancelled so no idea if shes have kept that or not. In the novels Conan over the course of his adventures keeps upgrading his gear. Then losing it due to his rampant gambling addiction, which lessened over time as he matured. He tended to armours that were relatively light or flexible such that  did not impede his mobility.

The both get the hell beat out of them... Frequently. And I suspect both wore light armour because it was all they could afford.

In BX or AD&D both would be Fighters with a high leaning to DEX. In 5e both work as either Barbarians, or as Fighters with a high leaning to DEX.

Quote from: jeff37923 on October 09, 2020, 07:38:18 AMStephanie Baudelaire does not speak for the OSR, nor is she a recognized spokesperson for the OSR,

The question should not be why is this crazy bitch in the OSR? It is why are we giving this crazy bitch any of our time? She reacted to Venger Satanis' trolling, big fucking deal.

1: Yet. That is the problem. One day they are some loon on the internet and the next they may be dictating to every entertainment venue that their insane is what everyone has to take as the truth.

2: I agree though that its just one loon in an ever growing morass of insane people. Unfortunately the inmates are now running the asylum. And normal folk are getting increasingly tired of it so reactions are to be expected.

I just get really tired of the constant barrage of someone freaking out because this or that fruitcake said something crazy... again.

But I think part of the reactions is because alot of people realized too late that the nuts they were dismissing and telling everyone "its not that bad. Its just one loon." had somehow gained enough power to start impacting the world more and more. Every corner of media and entertainment is now infected to one degree or another and we have seen time and again just how horrifically good these cultists are at turning people.

Quote from: Omega on October 16, 2020, 07:43:34 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on October 09, 2020, 07:38:18 AMStephanie Baudelaire does not speak for the OSR, nor is she a recognized spokesperson for the OSR,

The question should not be why is this crazy bitch in the OSR? It is why are we giving this crazy bitch any of our time? She reacted to Venger Satanis' trolling, big fucking deal.

1: Yet. That is the problem. One day they are some loon on the internet and the next they may be dictating to every entertainment venue that their insane is what everyone has to take as the truth.

2: I agree though that its just one loon in an ever growing morass of insane people. Unfortunately the inmates are now running the asylum. And normal folk are getting increasingly tired of it so reactions are to be expected.

I just get really tired of the constant barrage of someone freaking out because this or that fruitcake said something crazy... again.

But I think part of the reactions is because alot of people realized too late that the nuts they were dismissing and telling everyone "its not that bad. Its just one loon." had somehow gained enough power to start impacting the world more and more. Every corner of media and entertainment is now infected to one degree or another and we have seen time and again just how horrifically good these cultists are at turning people.

Damnit, I know that you are right, I just wonder how we can get these SJWs to knock it off. If we can.

Quote from: jeff37923 on October 16, 2020, 02:20:40 PM
Damnit, I know that you are right, I just wonder how we can get these SJWs to knock it off. If we can.

I've got friends who were annoying zealots from way back, long before 'SJW' was a term of affection... they're never going to stop. Others, I think it's a phase, that they calm down as they start to make money and own stuff and feel invested in the status quo. Like what happened with a lot of 'the hippies'.
One downside of the internet is that it enables zealots of all stripes to find each other and keep stoking the fires. Their neighbors think they're nuts but their 'real' friends online have their back.

Quote from: jeff37923 on October 16, 2020, 02:20:40 PMDamnit, I know that you are right, I just wonder how we can get these SJWs to knock it off. If we can.

That one is sadly easy and happening more and more.

They have to actually take their own medicine.

Couple of months ago one of these marketing parasites who was pushing this woke agenda to every company and admitted to using threats to push it. Suddenly found herself under the very gun she had loaded and was denied work because shes "too white" and the company has a quota to meet.

Its happening elsewhere in entertainment and outside more and more and these bastions of pushing the agenda will magically "see the light" and start opposing the very thing they set in place because they thought they would be spared the axe they were sharpening.

Karma.

In the prior iterations these nuts were also put down from increasing resistance and mockery. The more these movements abuse and distort the truth the more fed up people get. "Political Correctness" of the 90s became a thing of increasing mockery in media. And before that it was the "Moral Guardians" of the 70s.

This time though the latest iteration from 2010 has infiltrated everything and uses new psychology techniques to push it and the internet now allows every lunatic a voice and for god unknown reasons people started listening to them as if their madness were truth.

Quote from: Omega on October 17, 2020, 05:33:15 PM

This time though the latest iteration from 2010 has infiltrated everything and uses new psychology techniques to push it and the internet now allows every lunatic a voice and for god unknown reasons people started listening to them as if their madness were truth.

Because, for the last 20 years the internet was touted as "the voice of your customers" to which all companies must attend - or else.

Then the crazies were let in and took over the microphone.

Quote from: jeff37923 on October 16, 2020, 02:20:40 PMDamnit, I know that you are right, I just wonder how we can get these SJWs to knock it off. If we can.

Agreed, Omega is quite right and I couldn't have said it better.

But you know how we get these SJWs to knock it off.

And you know we can. It's just an issue of willpower. America as a culture and as a nation is crashing into oblivion and we're either going to nutsack up or it's over.

We can pussyfoot, chitchat, hand wring, dance around the obvious, "form communities" and pseudo-intellectualize all we want until the hammer drops, but the raw truth doesn't change.

being called fascist for supporting trump chaps my ass because the truth is i'm more of an anarchist; while i want a small limited domestic government with an outward focused strong military and foreign policy i can just as easily disobey any aspect of a large one that i dislike and it can catch me if it can. the left strikes me as the fascists with all their rules and speech codes. we were going to have a star trek future before the left went insane, now we can't even have a table top game w/o everyone being stuffed into labeled boxes, mislabeled even, for reasons unrelated to gaming. i have spoken at length with actual fascists both left and right wing and they both despise trump for different reasons; the one side because he is not the democrat party and the other because he will not liquidate blacks or jews. i can set all politics aside and sit down and play with ideological enemies for the sake of the game, why have we lost that ability? part of being an adult is keeping personal belief and duty separated, even if i hated blacks, if i worked for a burger joint i make burgers period, i dont ask if the customer is black and then refuse to make the burger. it seems to me there was never any politics in gaming at all until these harpies that screech "fascist" at everyone injected it. hope i'm too far off topic here.

Quote from: Snowman0147 on October 07, 2020, 12:19:09 PM
once the invaders are out we need to keep them out.  Seriously the future of entertainment is going to be about gatekeeping,

Ironically the #SJWs agree.

Quote from: Arkansan on October 07, 2020, 05:47:44 PM
IIRC someone immediately made a game under their banner that was almost indistinguishable from what would be standard alt right talking points but managed to do it in such a fashion that you really couldn't tell if it was a piss take on the whole "sword dream" or some oblivious leftist failing to see the parallels.

Poe's law really has become the new normal, hasn't it?

Quote from: jeff37923 on October 09, 2020, 07:38:18 AM
the largest Gross Conceptual Error to me being that the OSR is a club that you have to be a defined member in the OSR to be a part of the OSR. Not long ago, it was an advertising gimmick on modules to define that product from being a part of the endless churn of RennFaire Seattle settings. The OSR is still a very nebulous concept.

Just tell them #Antifa is also a club with defined members and watch them reverse their assessment.

Quote from: Mercurius on October 10, 2020, 04:28:03 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on October 10, 2020, 02:48:09 PM
A socialist system could also potentially be a free market where the means of production are owned by the workers or self-employed individuals, as proposed in mutualism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutualism_(economic_theory)), for example. Part of the problem with this is the conflation of any type of commerce with capitalism (which is more specifically about private ownership of the means of production, for profit ventures, accumulation of capital, wage labor/slavery, etc.). So that selling your own RPG books as a self-employed individual with full control of your own products without being beholden to a corporation somehow becomes necessarily pro-capitalism, as opposed to just engaging in commerce as people have done throughout history in many parts of the world before capitalism, as its understood in the modern sense became a thing.

Nothing really to add but agreement. So many problems arise from extremism on either side of any issue, which is often based in misunderstanding and only fuels the fire. This obviously pertains to any discussions around RPGs, D&D, and the OSR, with "traditionalists" and "wokists" offering extreme views that aren't interested in compromise or understanding.

Similarly with "traditionalism" vs "wokism" as it pertains to RPGs, D&D, and the OSR. There are ways to incorporate the best of both worlds, while jettisoning the worst.

Idealism at the expense of rationality never leads to a benevolent society.

Quote from: VengerSatanis on October 12, 2020, 03:43:47 PM
Just so you're aware, my "The OSR endorses Trump" blog post was 90% trolling the radical left / SJWs currently invading our hobby.  Obviously, the OSR ranges throughout the political spectrum - which is probably a good thing.  Yes, it brought me a modicum of attention (buy Cha'alt: Fuchsia Malaise!), but more importantly it shined a light on the cancel culture cretins who'd love nothing more than to drive out anyone to the right of Joe Biden.

To be fair who can tell the difference between earnestness and sarcasm these days without explicit clarification? Now that it's given however I wonder what percent trolling their responses were.

Quote from: Simlasa on October 15, 2020, 02:40:42 AM

Quote from: fixable on October 15, 2020, 02:31:21 AM
You all are ok with the OSR being defined as Pro-Trump (which it is not) but the moment someone states that the OSR is anti-NAZI you all get up in arms.

Well, it was Venger saying it and he's only second to Pundit in his willingness to say outrageous shit to get attention... so, not taken seriously?

Does this mean we shouldn't take Stephanie seriously either, or do they unironically believe what they say?

Quote from: RPGPundit on October 07, 2020, 12:02:21 AM
Venger recently claimed that the OSR officially endorses Donald Trump for re-election, as what is obviously a stupid publicity stunt. So this is obviously a response to that, implying that anyone who supports Donald Trump is a Nazi.

Lol no.
Venger states that the OSR is for Trump.
Stephanie states the OSR is for leftism.

What is the difference? It is two people making claims. Neither should be considered less than the other (unless this site has a bias which is very strong here on this site).

If you want to disparage Stephanie for stating that the OSR is for Leftism then you should also disparge Venger equally for stating that the OSR is for Trump.

Both are wrong by the way. No one person speaks for the OSR.  But If the OSR has to take sides, I'm on the not nazi fascist side.

Quote from: fixable on October 23, 2020, 03:19:56 AM
Both are wrong by the way. No one person speaks for the OSR.  But If the OSR has to take sides, I'm on the not nazi fascist side.

So you think Trump is a 'nazi fascist'. So in your world around half the US population support a 'nazi fascist', making them 'nazi fascist'.
You're comfortable with this belief?

Quote from: fixable on October 23, 2020, 03:19:56 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on October 07, 2020, 12:02:21 AM
Venger recently claimed that the OSR officially endorses Donald Trump for re-election, as what is obviously a stupid publicity stunt. So this is obviously a response to that, implying that anyone who supports Donald Trump is a Nazi.

Lol no.
Venger states that the OSR is for Trump.
Stephanie states the OSR is for leftism.

What is the difference? It is two people making claims. Neither should be considered less than the other (unless this site has a bias which is very strong here on this site).

If you want to disparage Stephanie for stating that the OSR is for Leftism then you should also disparge Venger equally for stating that the OSR is for Trump.

Both are wrong by the way. No one person speaks for the OSR.  But If the OSR has to take sides, I'm on the not nazi fascist side.

Except Venger has admitted on this very site he was taking the piss and trolling and Stephanie's claim implies that everyone who supports Trump is a "NAHTZEE". For gods sake quit seeing Nazi's in every shadow, not everyone right of Kamala Harris is a fascist.

Stephanie Baudelaire and Venger Satanis can say whatever they want.  The OSR is not a centralized political movement.  There's no central leadership, no ruling council with the authority to revoke membership in the OSR.

My understanding has always been that the OSR is a set of design principles for tabletop RPGs.  Nothing more, nothing less.

It's not a political movement, nor is it some kind of exclusive club.

If Virtue Signaling from Stephanie or Venger (yes, deliberately writing the most offensive thing you can and then gleefully rubbing it in the audience' face is also a form of virtue signaling) bothers you, you are free to buy products from a different creator.

Quote from: Torque2100 on October 23, 2020, 09:27:14 AM
Stephanie Baudelaire and Venger Satanis can say whatever they want.  The OSR is not a centralized political movement.  There's no central leadership, no ruling council with the authority to revoke membership in the OSR.

My understanding has always been that the OSR is a set of design principles for tabletop RPGs.  Nothing more, nothing less.

It's not a political movement, nor is it some kind of exclusive club.

If Virtue Signaling from Stephanie or Venger (yes, deliberately writing the most offensive thing you can and then gleefully rubbing it in the audience' face is also a form of virtue signaling) bothers you, you are free to buy products from a different creator.

Well said! The whole situation is just pointless empty drama. I'd sit down at a table with each of them (or both at the same time!) if the game was good. That's all that should matter.

I think the point is that if enough people get in with certain views to a critical mass, they can then change the culture of the hobby and then you can't open a book without getting hit with politics.

Frankly 20 years ago I never thought I'd see the day D&D got political, as it didn't happen in the real world, and you can make any social change you want in your game world by fiat. Oh well.

Also an increasing number of people insist that the producers of any media they want to consume share their politics, which I find a little silly. Though as a semiconservative watching media I was used to having to tune out the 'message'. (Look at all the trouble Milius got into after making Red Dawn.)

Quote from: Null42 on October 23, 2020, 11:25:57 AM
I think the point is that if enough people get in with certain views to a critical mass, they can then change the culture of the hobby and then you can't open a book without getting hit with politics.

How do you propose to stop them from getting in? RPGs are a form of expression and when released into the wild they behave like any other expression. They get added to, revised, adapted, changed, abandoned, etc. How do you stop person X from doing that?

I suppose you can make your voice heard to push back against the trend of wokeness. Though talk is cheap on the internet and most publishers I would think view internet chatter as a predictor of future sales. Like we are seeing WotC gamble on hyper-wokeness. Perhaps the best way then is to vote with your wallet and not buy from publishers that follow social trends.

Quote from: fixable on October 23, 2020, 03:19:56 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on October 07, 2020, 12:02:21 AM
Venger recently claimed that the OSR officially endorses Donald Trump for re-election, as what is obviously a stupid publicity stunt. So this is obviously a response to that, implying that anyone who supports Donald Trump is a Nazi.

Lol no.
Venger states that the OSR is for Trump.
Stephanie states the OSR is for leftism.

What is the difference? It is two people making claims. Neither should be considered less than the other (unless this site has a bias which is very strong here on this site).

If you want to disparage Stephanie for stating that the OSR is for Leftism then you should also disparge Venger equally for stating that the OSR is for Trump.

All claims are not created equal. One guy making a troll post to rile people up, and someone else taking the bait and making bogus accusations and fallacious statements about entire groups of people are not the same thing.

But you keep riding those false equivalences. I know you don't know the difference and don't care. You just want to make your case no matter how wrong it is, then trot around victoriously after toppling all the pieces and shitting on the chess board.

Quote from: fixable on October 23, 2020, 03:19:56 AMBoth are wrong by the way. No one person speaks for the OSR.

The only vaguely true thing you have posted so far.

Quote from: fixable on October 23, 2020, 03:19:56 AMBut If the OSR has to take sides, I'm on the not nazi fascist side.

Everything I've seen you post implies otherwise.  ::)

Quote from: rytrasmi on October 23, 2020, 11:39:11 AM

Quote from: Null42 on October 23, 2020, 11:25:57 AM
I think the point is that if enough people get in with certain views to a critical mass, they can then change the culture of the hobby and then you can't open a book without getting hit with politics.

How do you propose to stop them from getting in? --snip--

It's called MARGINALIZATION. It's what they are doing to us. However, against them it worked for decades, especially during the initial Post War period. Nothing is impossible if people realize that 'normalization' is only possible through permissive attitudes and tolerance for the intolerable. I hate to say it, but to defeat the enemy one must become them - even if it means becoming a hypocrite. Only continued weakness of will and mind will prevent us from winning and having TRUE INCLUSION back again! (I know I sound like them... but that's the current situation we find ourselves in. They chose the "By Any Means Necessary" route. That means they need the boot to the balls, forever. Never forgive and never forget! End tolerance.)

The leftist entryists into the OSR aren't going to be able to control or change it. Their products are not interesting to anyone but themselves. And frankly, it seems pretty clear that's how they like it; they don't want to sell products to the rest of us. Of course, they don't want us to be able to sell our products at all, but they'll never be able to outcompete us, and the OSR doesn't have a "Wizards of the Coast" they can control.

Yet.

We have seen how good they are at turning people, and how good they are at infiltrating and subverting from within. Oust one person, then another for some "wrong" and eventually the inmates are running the asylum.

Or god knows some other crack-head ploy to shut down opposition. We've seen it time and again.

OSR game designers that work for themselves can't be canceled by SJWs. Especially if they crowdfund their projects on Indiegogo.