Quote from: Mistwell;646500A big part of the reason for the decline is the economy.  RPGs started to decline when the economy started to decline.  The economy is still pretty shaky, and so are RPG sales.  It's not the only reason, but it's one major reason.

So how would you explain the continued strong growth of the boardgaming industry and hobby?

I gotta say, I just love the smug advice given to people struggling to run profitable businesses by people who have clearly never even tried. The radiant ignorance is breathtaking.

Quote from: Haffrung;646678I gotta say, I just love the smug advice given to people struggling to run profitable businesses by people who have clearly never even tried. The radiant ignorance is breathtaking.

Be my guest. I do run a business, and if I was struggling to turn a profit, I'd stop. I have claimed no expertise in the RPG industry, but some basics are universal. Few, I agree, but we were not exactly discussing the intricacies here.

Quote from: Rincewind1;646529Fair enough as well. But on the other hand - I keep looking on the internet, and I see a lot of people who show at least above average/decent drawing capabilities. You need but to look at the webcomic crowds, to see hundreds of people drawing excellent stuff for free - and judging by the average quality of a plot, they are in desperate need for a writer.

Putting your commercial enterprise at the mercy of people you come across on the internet who have not demonstrated the ability to deliver professional material on time is folly of the highest order. Even companies like Paizo get burned not infrequently by freelancers who flake out. And they have the resources to backfill with a stable of experienced writers and artists.

Quote from: SineNomine;646672Whereupon you advised me that I should be paying fourth-world wages to a guy in Ukraine, because I guess they're all clay goblins who can live on sand. Now, if I'm going to be a villain, I insist on being a much higher grade of villain than this. I want Bangladeshi sweatshops with deaf orphans chained to their drawing desks and my art orders communicated by means of a code of syncopated floggings. Telling some Ukrainian guy he's got to live on four pierogies this week instead of five is petty villainy, and I will have no part of it until the profit on it increases exponentially.

If that makes you a villain, everyone who buys or uses anything made in China is just as much a villain.

These countries are in a state of abject poverty, if you want to keep them that way don't give them any work or put any capital into their economies. If you'd like to see living conditions in these places improve, do pay their inhabitants to work. If you're paying more than the local rate however, you may as well get the work done at home where you have more control.

You see, your concern for the welfare of poor people actually leads to poor people starving by the roadside for the benefit of western artists who don't want to compete on the global playing field. Personally I don't feel as though I owe anything to western artists or any sector in particular.

Quote from: Haffrung;646678I gotta say, I just love the smug advice given to people struggling to run profitable businesses by people who have clearly never even tried. The radiant ignorance is breathtaking.

Heh, I've founded, built and sold several businesses buddy. The only ignorance appears to be radiating from the "oh woe is us" crowd.

Quote from: The Traveller;646707These countries are in a state of abject poverty, if you want to keep them that way don't give them any work or put any capital into their economies. If you'd like to see living conditions in these places improve, do pay their inhabitants to work. If you're paying more than the local rate however, you may as well get the work done at home where you have more control.

I'm hiring good artists who just happen to be working from foreign countries, because I do not especially care where they come from or what their national GDP is or what my responsibility as a Righteous Global Citizen (tm) is. I just want some damn art. To get this art, I'm paying them fair market rate for their work. Let's cover the reasons why one more time:

1) Finding dirt-cheap artists who also fulfill the basic minimums of professionalism and fast delivery is difficult. Once I find them, I've saved money, but I've spent a great deal of time winnowing the flakes and discovering that the guy working for $5 a pop feels no amazing urgency to finish my art buy.

2) Dirt-cheap artists that also fulfill the basic minimums of professionalism rapidly start to charge the amount the market will bear- and that's $20-$40 per quarter-page slot easily. So that time I spent finding them buys me cheap art for one project, not an everlasting stream of sub-market art prices.

3) Paying fair market rates saves me grief. I get good artists who deliver on time and to spec. This saves me time and aggravation and lets me focus on my own comparative advantage, which is writing and production management.

Look, you've run several businesses, right? How would you respond to a random guy who's not in your industry coming up to you and telling you that you're doing it all wrong, that these Foozlestani widget manufacturers are working for peanuts and can get you a ton of vital widgets for a quarter of your usual price. Except that you already know from personal experience that Foozlestani widget manufacturers have a defect rate of 17% and lose all their English whenever you ask where the delivery is. And that if you don't get those widgets on time and to spec, your business is dead in the water.

The simple truth is that trying to skin third-world artists for your project art is too expensive in time, aggravation, and uncertainty to be worth the nugatory financial rewards involved. If you believe otherwise, well, I'd want to see the book you put together before I bet my next project on the idea. Last year I sold somewhat north of $40K worth of books. This year, Q1 sales are already up almost 100% over last year. I really do not need to risk blowing up my production schedule by gutting an art budget I can already afford without strain.

Curse those d*mn Foozlestanis!!

Quote from: SineNomine;646727I'm hiring good artists who just happen to be working from foreign countries, because I do not especially care where they come from or what their national GDP is or what my responsibility as a Righteous Global Citizen (tm) is. I just want some damn art. To get this art, I'm paying them fair market rate for their work.

No you got pulled up on the sweatshops comment, and now you say you're paying western rates to people in developing countries. That's your call, there's no reason to do it though.

Quote from: SineNomine;646727Look, you've run several businesses, right? How would you respond to a random guy who's not in your industry coming up to you and telling you that you're doing it all wrong

Nobody said you were doing it all wrong, I just pointed out a couple of problems, namely that you should have factored shipping into that KS like other people are doing and that there's no good reason to pay western rates to people in developing countries. Western artists are very vocal and heavy handed when it comes to the 'protection' of their brethren, who of course think they'll get big money if they play along.

What actually happens is they get no money since there's no tangible difference between them and western artists except distance and control, which is plenty to make businesses choose western artists.

Of course now it transpires that you didn't want to make any money from the KS, congratulations you have succeeded. Don't imagine the same applies to every or even most successful KSs though.

Quote from: SineNomine;646727Except that you already know from personal experience that Foozlestani widget manufacturers have a defect rate of 17% and lose all their English whenever you ask where the delivery is. And that if you don't get those widgets on time and to spec, your business is dead in the water.

Doesn't matter how much you pay someone, if they aren't going to deliver they aren't going to deliver. There was a big thread about exactly that hereabouts recently, some (western) guy was making a megadungeon and wandered off with forty grand. Nice how you use a broad brush on artists from developing countries though, I'm sure they'd appreciate that.

Quote from: SineNomine;646727The simple truth is that trying to skin third-world artists for your project art is too expensive in time, aggravation, and uncertainty to be worth the nugatory financial rewards involved.

Again with the derogatory terms. Maybe you don't understand how this works. $10 in a place like the Philippines is worth $50 in real spending terms over there. Here you can buy $10 worth of groceries with $10. There you can buy $50 worth of groceries with $10. That doesn't apply to things like electronics and cars, but almost everything else, yeah. So who exactly is being skinned?

They are at a big disadvantage due to distance and apparently a poor reputation, if they can offset this with lower costs while still maintaining a similar lifestyle more power to them. And even with that many businesses would prefer not to use them.

Quote from: SineNomine;646727If you believe otherwise, well, I'd want to see the book you put together before I bet my next project on the idea. Last year I sold somewhat north of $40K worth of books. This year, Q1 sales are already up almost 100% over last year. I really do not need to risk blowing up my production schedule by gutting an art budget I can already afford without strain.

Good for you, I'm glad it's working out. So you're happy enough to say that there is decent money to be made in RPGs?

Quote from: The Traveller;646630A fair bit is really needed I think. You can reduce the amount with some clever layout tricks like Eclipse Phase did, but you're absolutely right that these costs should be factored into the kickstarter.

What beats me is when you get people like SineNomine weeping bitterly that there's no money in RPGs and pointing to their $600 profit on a kickstarter as evidence...

...right before they admit they intended it as a loss leader and never meant to make any money on it in the first place.

:confused:

Cos its 3 months work for 1 days's pay........?

Quote from: The Traveller;646740No you got pulled up on the sweatshops comment, and now you say you're paying western rates to people in developing countries. That's your call, there's no reason to do it though.

Traveller, this entire conversation has been a laundry list of the reasons why I am paying western rates to people in Nigeria- in brief, because I am requiring Western standards of results from anyone I hire. You are under the impression that these standards can be satisfied for trivial amounts of money. You are welcome to maintain that impression, but I cannot say that I'm going to take it all that seriously until you show me the nicely-illustrated 200 page RPG you published with a $500 art budget.

Quote from: The Traveller;646740Good for you, I'm glad it's working out. So you're happy enough to say that there is decent money to be made in RPGs?

You do realize his entire spiel was a response to someone saying that there was no way that all the money from a kickstarter was actually invested back in the product, right?

And that he has repeatedly pointed this out to you.

And all you can keep harping on is this point he never said.

If you are going to be acerbic, why don't you try and actually be ACCURATE in what you are saying?

Quote from: SineNomine;646746Traveller, this entire conversation has been a laundry list of the reasons why I am paying western rates to people in Nigeria- in brief, because I am requiring Western standards of results from anyone I hire. You are under the impression that these standards can be satisfied for trivial amounts of money.

Of course they can, the computer you're typing on is a testament to that.

Quote from: SineNomine;646746You are welcome to maintain that impression, but I cannot say that I'm going to take it all that seriously until you show me the nicely-illustrated 200 page RPG you published with a $500 art budget.

I'll show you one with a $0 art budget as soon as I can find the time to finish teaching myself the subject.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;646749You do realize his entire spiel was a response to someone saying that there was no way that all the money from a kickstarter was actually invested back in the product, right?

And that he has repeatedly pointed this out to you.

It was repeatedly ignored because Rincewind was right, most KSs have a profit margin built into them. These aren't charities, most companies use it as a preordering tool. I wouldn't agree that most of them fake bills mind you but I don't think that was the point. That mister loss leader didn't on purpose is his own affair.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;646749If you are going to be acerbic, why don't you try and actually be ACCURATE in what you are saying?

I'm not the one pissing on artists from developing countries here.

I apologise because I did indeed word the original paragraph poorly. What I meant was a hyperbole suggesting that I believe that perhaps some are indulging in various crafty activities in order to flush down money raised in Kickstarter as pure profit, since the funds, unlike even the government stimulus packets, aren't the "pay us if you succeed "loans, but just cash in metaphorical hand. And I apologise if someone felt insulted over this.

Quote from: The Traveller;646754It was repeatedly ignored because Rincewind was right, most KSs have a profit margin built into them. These aren't charities, most companies use it as a preordering tool. I wouldn't agree that most of them fake bills mind you but I don't think that was the point. That mister loss leader didn't on purpose is his own affair.

I'll show you one with a $0 art budget as soon as I can find the time to finish teaching myself the subject.

Truth be told, I think the biggest lesson I got from this thread is to ignore RPGs and instead come up with a Kickstarter lookalike that'd charge 3% rather than 5 .

And heh, beware the brash words - I still feel a terrible shame for what I've done to StormBringer and the rest of people involved in "my" project on these forums, the GMPM, having abandoned them with all their finished, hard work, when I was fleeing life for a year.

Quote from: jibbajibba;646741Cos its 3 months work for 1 days's pay........?

That's profit on top of normal later sales of that product. The Kickstarter fundraising is great, especially for RPGs, because it reduces the so - common in RPGs flop risk.

Quote from: Rincewind1;646759"pay us if you succeed "loans

Where is that?