Why I Don't Like SWN

Baulderstone · August 25, 2015, 12:12:51 PM

Quote from: jeff37923;850839If the rule system does not cause the Players to respect the lethality of the weapons, then you get less tactics and more hit point attrition based combat. With modern or futuristic weapons I want the Players to be anxious at the very least when a gun is pointed at them. With a more lethal combat system, you get less "Charge!!" being a viable combat strategy. I prefer that.

I've found that is an advantage of games with exploding dice for damage. They strike a nice balance between survivability and lethality. Sure, you probably can just charge the guy pointing a laser pistol at you and shrug off the 2d6 damage. Then again, if one or both of those dice come up 6, you might get hurt a lot worse than you were counting on. I find they encourage players to think tactically without making every mistake a lethal one.

jeff37923 · August 25, 2015, 03:24:25 PM

Quote from: Baulderstone;851109I've found that is an advantage of games with exploding dice for damage. They strike a nice balance between survivability and lethality. Sure, you probably can just charge the guy pointing a laser pistol at you and shrug off the 2d6 damage. Then again, if one or both of those dice come up 6, you might get hurt a lot worse than you were counting on. I find they encourage players to think tactically without making every mistake a lethal one.

I consider exploding dice to be a viable alternative, a middle ground of credible lethality.

Enlightened · August 25, 2015, 06:05:29 PM

Quote from: jeff37923;850864Exactly, they are considered a credible threat. When the character has 40 hit points and is being shot at by a blaster that only does 4d6 damage, it isn't considered a credible threat. There is not enough danger.

I understand that this isn't your cup of tea, and everyone just likes what they like, but there are genres and settings in which being shot at by a blaster ISN'T even actually SUPPOSED to be a credible threat (like Star Wars).

In a sense, SWN (at mid and higher levels) emulates this kind of thing. You are the kind of person for whom getting shot at isn't necessary deadly, more just a slighly fatiguing set back or something. Kind of like a lot of action movies (but of course not all action movies).

Bren · August 25, 2015, 06:11:13 PM

Quote from: Enlightened;851162I understand that this isn't your cup of tea, and everyone just likes what they like, but there are genres and settings in which being shot at by a blaster ISN'T even actually SUPPOSED to be a credible threat (like Star Wars).

In a sense, SWN (at mid and higher levels) emulates this kind of thing. You are the kind of person for whom getting shot at isn't necessary deadly, more just a slighly fatiguing set back or something. Kind of like a lot of action movies (but of course not all action movies).

The problem for many is that according to the rules, being actually hit squarely by a blaster (like burning you in the chest) doesn't do more damage than being shot at by a blaster and almost hit*--both do 4d6.

* Presumably by a slightly fatiguing set back you mean almost hit.

Enlightened · August 25, 2015, 06:11:45 PM

Quote from: jeff37923;850839The combat is a big one. Characters having hit points means that it takes many more hits to incapacitate or kill them. The result of this is that PCs tend to look at combat as something where if you have enough hit points, then you can survive anything.

Case in point, using d20 Star Wars, in a firefight between the PCs and some stormtroopers, one of the stormtroopers threw a grenade at the party. One Player had his character cover the grenade with his body. I thought, "Wow! Heroic self-sacrifice from the PC. When he rolls up his next character, I will have to give him some benefit." What the Player then said was, "Yeah, I have enough hit points to absorb all the damage without really getting hurt!" He had a shit fit when I told him his PC was dead.

If the rule system does not cause the Players to respect the lethality of the weapons, then you get less tactics and more hit point attrition based combat. With modern or futuristic weapons I want the Players to be anxious at the very least when a gun is pointed at them. With a more lethal combat system, you get less "Charge!!" being a viable combat strategy. I prefer that.

EDIT: It is like the problem with falling damage in D&D. If a Player Character has enough hit points, that PC could theoretically fall from a mile high and survive depending on the dice. It is not realistic and breaks the suspension of disbelief.

I think you handled the grenade thing the same way I would have. I would rule that the damage listed is the damage you suffer when trying to AVOID the blast. If you intentionaly take the blast, you die.

I mentioned this in the previous post too, but it's a conscious choice in some genres and settings that weapons are not necessarily lethal. So you need to get on the same page with your players about what assumptions you're making. Otherwise they may be assuming they are playing in one genre, but you are actually running a completely different genre.

Enlightened · August 25, 2015, 06:12:35 PM

Quote from: Bren;851164The problem for many is that being actually hit squarely by a blaster (like burning you in the chest) doesn't do more damage than being shot at by a blaster and almost hit*--both do 4d6.

* Presumably by a slightly fatiguing set back you mean almost hit.

You are never hit squarly by a blaster until the shot that takes you out.

Shawn Driscoll · August 25, 2015, 06:15:42 PM

Quote from: Baulderstone;851109I've found that is an advantage of games with exploding dice for damage. They strike a nice balance between survivability and lethality. Sure, you probably can just charge the guy pointing a laser pistol at you and shrug off the 2d6 damage. Then again, if one or both of those dice come up 6, you might get hurt a lot worse than you were counting on. I find they encourage players to think tactically without making every mistake a lethal one.

Just get rid of both the hit points and the exploding dice pools.

Bren · August 25, 2015, 06:18:39 PM

Quote from: Enlightened;851166You are never hit squarly by a blaster until the shot that takes you out.

I'm aware of the rationalization. But unless the rules allow some mechanism, other than GM fiat, so that a shot can take you out if you still have hit points left, its a rationalization that many find unpersuasive.

That's why you "need to get on the same page with your players" since simply looking at the damage table in the rules and the hit points of the PC doesn't get you on the same page and maybe not really in the same chapter.

Enlightened · August 25, 2015, 06:27:06 PM

Quote from: Bren;851169I'm aware of the rationalization. But unless the rules allow some mechanism, other than GM fiat, so that a shot can take you out if you still have hit points left, its a rationalization that many find unpersuasive.

A shot can't ever take you out if you have HP left. That's the whole point of HP. They are insurance against getting taken out. It's kind of story-game-y, but that's how D&D style HPs have always worked.

I think the reason the rules don't specifically mention how to handle things like jumping on grenades is because the assumption is that you are always trying to avoid the damage.

As for published rules, though, D20 has the "Helpless Defender" and "Coup de Grace" rules, so that could be used.

Chivalric · August 25, 2015, 06:32:36 PM

If I were to use a D&D derivative for sci-fi gaming, I'd definitely have a means for getting taken out by a single shot even at full hit points. Exploding dice, first 6 HP are life points and when they go down to zero, you are at zero. Crits hitting LP. That sort of thing.

Enlightened · August 25, 2015, 06:38:51 PM

Quote from: NathanIW;851175If I were to use a D&D derivative for sci-fi gaming, I'd definitely have a means for getting taken out by a single shot even at full hit points. Exploding dice, first 6 HP are life points and when they go down to zero, you are at zero. Crits hitting LP. That sort of thing.

And that's a common and beautiful choice.

Many games do. D20 modern has Threshold rules, and D20 Deadlands has "Gettin' the Drop" rules, etc.

SWN doesn't specifically include them either to save space and leave it up to the GM or because it is emulating a more Star Wars-like Space Opera in which guns aren't supposed to be that deadly (unless perhaps if you intentionally try to get hurt).

So it's likely not the game for people who want necessary lethality in the mid and high levels (without houserules of course).

SineNomine · August 25, 2015, 11:26:54 PM

SWN does have them, yes, though it's given as a special case under the sniper rifle description. If you shoot an unsuspecting target with it after a round of aiming, they have to make a Physical Effect save at a penalty equal to the shooter's Combat/Projectile skill or get instagibbed.

This guideline is spelled out more clearly in Darkness Visible under its "Sudden Takedown" optional rule. In that case, it generalizes the effect to any weapon used against a totally unsuspecting target, with maximum damage inflicted even on a save. Smacking a clueless target with a projectile weapon is at +4 to hit, and a melee weapon at +8.