Quote from: jhkim;1024748As you note, gender is by player choice, though. Every player has the same chance to get a noble, so they've all got the same shot. To my mind, options which are player choice are different. Even in old school, it seems to me that there is some effort to make the different options relatively balanced. For example, most games wouldn't have a standard class that is in every way weaker than another class, like hedge witch compared to a wizard, or a man-at-arms compared to a cavalier.

Clearly, you've never enjoyed the awesomeness of playing a Rogue Scholar or a Vagabond in RIFTS.

QuoteAs you note, the probabilities can reflect that there are less peasant-heroes and more heroes of higher classes. Based on this logic, there is some justification that the rare woman who becomes a hero is extra qualified.

Well yes, she is, compared to other women in the setting. As I explain in the book, depending on her class, she's either been chosen by god, trained to be a warrior, dared to be a thief, or made the choice to study magic independently. I would expect women characters would all stand out as exceptional representatives of their gender. In ways not unlike how players of peasant PCs also have to explain what vagaries of chance led to their character becoming an adventurer, rather than a farmer.

Quote from: WillInNewHaven;1024736He has. He takes forever and a half to set up a campaign but he has started. I estimate session 0 will be in April, but I'm an optimist.

That seems like a long wait!

Quote from: jhkim;1024748Also, one could just have gender be random-roll. I'm tempted to try that in one of my upcoming games.

Great idea!

This would be particularly fitting in Sagas of the Icelanders, as gender roles and social expectations are part of that game central themes, and having a varied group gender-wise just enriches the experience.

I'd be a bit concerned that some players would be a lot better at playing contrary to their gender than others. I never object if a player chooses to, but I don't know if I'd expect that of them not by choice.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1025029That seems like a long wait!

He's running his old campaign in the interim. Meanwhile, he's asking me questions about the DA setting and I'm going to ask you some of them if I get stumped.

Quote from: WillInNewHaven;1025393He's running his old campaign in the interim. Meanwhile, he's asking me questions about the DA setting and I'm going to ask you some of them if I get stumped.

Sure. Glad to answer them if I can.

Quote from: CausticJedi;1023648How's your perspective, BTW?  I take it that you believe you're the balanced one in all this?

For anyone  to think that the thread on RPG.net was in anyway balanced, they would have to be unbalanced.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1025551But there's no special challenge to being a peasant on Faerun or Krynn, your peasant PC can get to hobnob with the King and tell him off just the same as if your character was an Earl.

In Lion & Dragon, it doesn't work that way. There are very strongly-defined social class distinctions. There's weapons and armor you don't get to go around in if you're not a Knight. Peasants can be literally imprisoned and sentenced to lashings for telling off a Lord. Social Class distinction should, if you're playing the game straight, be something that very strongly defines every Player Character in a Lion & Dragon campaign (or in any campaign set in Dark Albion).

*stolen*

Actually I think class and society structures can work well in places that have nobility, especially in Cormyr of the Forgotten Realms, Furyondy of Greyhawk, or even the Houses of Eberron. In fact I really like this idea a lot that I'm going to incorporate it into my 3.5 Cormyr game, so thanks for that! It's already difficult for adventurers to do any work in Cormyr without an Adventurer's Charter and must peace-bond any weapons when entering any boro, hamlet, town, etc. unless they show evidence of a Charter. Adding in class distinctions, with nobility and soldiers of the crown not taking particularly well to Adventurers and especially non-Cormyreans. Here's the laws of the land thus far:

- All persons entering Cormyr must register with the officials of a border garrison.
- Foreign currency can only be used in certain locations. Please exchange your coins for Cormyrean golden lions at your first opportunity.
- Adventurers must acquire a charter before undertaking any operation as a group.
- All weapons must be peace-bonded. The only persons exempt from this law are members of chartered adventuring groups and members of mercenary groups that can offer proof of employment.
- Harming cats is forbidden.
- Bow your head to royalty and the local nobility.
- Purple Dragons have the right to search you upon request.
- Hunting on private land is forbidden.

And I think adding certain restrictions on things like what you can buy: weapons and armor wise, is really awesome. A good way of keeping the citizenry humble is limiting the type of weapons you can buy and walk around with, let along armor (as if the prices weren't enough).

As Kyle always points out, it's the people not the system.  People who don't like the idea of somebody being a higher social class then them will avoid games where that happens.  And there are such people.

Quote from: Batman;1026228*stolen*

Actually I think class and society structures can work well in places that have nobility, especially in Cormyr of the Forgotten Realms, Furyondy of Greyhawk, or even the Houses of Eberron. In fact I really like this idea a lot that I'm going to incorporate it into my 3.5 Cormyr game, so thanks for that! It's already difficult for adventurers to do any work in Cormyr without an Adventurer's Charter and must peace-bond any weapons when entering any boro, hamlet, town, etc. unless they show evidence of a Charter. Adding in class distinctions, with nobility and soldiers of the crown not taking particularly well to Adventurers and especially non-Cormyreans. Here's the laws of the land thus far:

- All persons entering Cormyr must register with the officials of a border garrison.
- Foreign currency can only be used in certain locations. Please exchange your coins for Cormyrean golden lions at your first opportunity.
- Adventurers must acquire a charter before undertaking any operation as a group.
- All weapons must be peace-bonded. The only persons exempt from this law are members of chartered adventuring groups and members of mercenary groups that can offer proof of employment.
- Harming cats is forbidden.
- Bow your head to royalty and the local nobility.
- Purple Dragons have the right to search you upon request.
- Hunting on private land is forbidden.

And I think adding certain restrictions on things like what you can buy: weapons and armor wise, is really awesome. A good way of keeping the citizenry humble is limiting the type of weapons you can buy and walk around with, let along armor (as if the prices weren't enough).

Well, those are good steps. If you want to get even more into it, set up Sumptuary laws. Only people of certain social class are allowed to wear certain types of cloth (ie. silk), and only people of certain noble rank are allowed to use certain colors of clothing (gold or silver trim, red, or of course the royal purple).

Quote from: RPGPundit;1026509Well, those are good steps. If you want to get even more into it, set up Sumptuary laws. Only people of certain social class are allowed to wear certain types of cloth (ie. silk), and only people of certain noble rank are allowed to use certain colors of clothing (gold or silver trim, red, or of course the royal purple).

Some excellent points! Considering that the nobility and royalty of Cormyr often wear Purple (ie. Purple Dragon Knights) that color would definitely be something that's prohibited to the plebeians and only affordable and usable by the gentry. I'll look more into the more exotic and rare cloths of the land, but since it's such a crazy detailed world, that shouldn't be hard. Thanks for the suggestions!

Quote from: RPGPundit;1026509Well, those are good steps. If you want to get even more into it, set up Sumptuary laws. Only people of certain social class are allowed to wear certain types of cloth (ie. silk), and only people of certain noble rank are allowed to use certain colors of clothing (gold or silver trim, red, or of course the royal purple).

In 46 years of gaming I have had one person ask one question about clothing.  I want your players.

I could post all the sumptuary laws I wanted; the players wouldn't care.

GAAH!  I leave for GaryCon in less than a week, I can't get into a long discussion now!!!

My players do that ALL THE TIME!  I had a guy play a Bard and he wanted an entire run down of instruments that the character would use.  I often end up running around after the game doing research.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1026509Well, those are good steps. If you want to get even more into it, set up Sumptuary laws. Only people of certain social class are allowed to wear certain types of cloth (ie. silk), and only people of certain noble rank are allowed to use certain colors of clothing (gold or silver trim, red, or of course the royal purple).

Purple has been a color of upper classes since antiquity. The Greek elite used purple dye and of course it was popular in Phoenicia, whose name is derived from the Greek word phoínios meaning purple.

It's funny the L&D gets heat for gender roles, when something like Reign gets celebrated. I really wonder if the issue is the book or the author.