You guys are way too hard on the genre.

I've played RPGs for about 35 years. With hundreds of people of every education level and social background imaginable.

The "Dungeon fantasy" genre, with it's primal brew of fairy tale and western tropes, is accessible to just about everyone in the Western world. And big chunks of the Eastern world. Even people who don't read fantasy novels or who aren't otherwise "Geek culture" fans can get into it, if only for a few hours each week. It's popular because it's simple, most people at like it at least a little bit, it's enough of a blank slate for players and DMs to "Season to taste" with bits of other stuff they like (i.e. Ravenloft = D&D +60's Hammer Horror, Eberron = D&D + a dash of Steampunk + a pinch of WWI, Lamentations of the Flame Princess = D&D + 70's arty Euro-Horror  grindhouse sleaze, Dungeon Crawl Classics = D&D + Smoking pot in your crazy uncle's dank basement full of Planet of the Apes memorabilia, etc.) and because it "Works" very well for an adventure game with a broad audience.

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;919162...Dungeon Crawl Classics = D&D + Smoking pot in your crazy uncle's dank basement full of Planet of the Apes memorabilia...

Did you have a hidden camera into my life, or what?!

"Tolkienesque" fantasy dominates the marketplace because it is what is popular and sells well. D&Desque games dominate the marketplace for the same reason.  Appendix N fantasy is generally out of print and obscure. People have heard of D&D and Tolkien and expect fantasy to be like that.

Novels must be in a trilogy at least, games must have elves and orcs. As for why Tolkien and D&D have become so popular I think it is because they draw so heavily on the foundational mythogy and legendry of Western and Northern Europe, King Arthur, the Rhinegold, knights in shining armor, wizards, the stories that we all grow up hearing in some form or other even if only in rewritten versions (like LotR).

The Tolkien mania that started at about the same time D&D hit created a sea change in fantasy Read LotR then read Urshurak and The Sword of Shanara.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;918941Lord of the Rings, with over 150 million copies sold, is one of the two bestselling books of the 20th century.

And this "D&D is not Tolkien" nonsense is minutia wankery of the "inner circle." To the vast majority of people, "Lord of the Rings has elves, Dungeons and Dragons has elves, World of Warcraft has elves, therefore LotR = D&D = WoW." People who differentiate D&D from Tolkien are statistically insignificant.

I disagree to some extent, btw.
We are talking about the popularity of this type of gaming, not the popularity of the books or movies.  So we are talking about the way gamers perceive it, since said popularity of games is based on how many people buy and play them.
  You are expressing, I think, properly, the view from the general population.  

But gamers have always talked about the difference, from the very beginning.  So,  in the gamers population,  the actual population subset we are involved with, People who differentiate D&D from Tolkien are statistically very significant.

Quote from: LordVreeg;919299I disagree to some extent, btw.
We are talking about the popularity of this type of gaming, not the popularity of the books or movies.  So we are talking about the way gamers perceive it, since said popularity of games is based on how many people buy and play them.
  You are expressing, I think, properly, the view from the general population.  

But gamers have always talked about the difference, from the very beginning.  So,  in the gamers population,  the actual population subset we are involved with, People who differentiate D&D from Tolkien are statistically very significant.

I think the % of gamers that actively post on a forum about gaming is a very small % of the number of actual gamer.s

The type of Tolkien you get in D&D is similar to the type of 'Spiderman' toy you buy in the dollar store (actually called Webman or Tarantulaman or maybe Spyders Man). There's a vague resemblance if you're five years old and don't pay too much attention.

Quote from: Simlasa;919371The type of Tolkien you get in D&D is similar to the type of 'Spiderman' toy you buy in the dollar store (actually called Webman or Tarantulaman or maybe Spyders Man). There's a vague resemblance if you're five years old and don't pay too much attention.

well put.

Quote from: Simlasa;919371The type of Tolkien you get in D&D is similar to the type of 'Spiderman' toy you buy in the dollar store (actually called Webman or Tarantulaman or maybe Spyders Man). There's a vague resemblance if you're five years old and don't pay too much attention.

funnily enough my dollar store had legit spider man dolls last i was there.

Quote from: Simlasa;919371The type of Tolkien you get in D&D is similar to the type of 'Spiderman' toy you buy in the dollar store (actually called Webman or Tarantulaman or maybe Spyders Man). There's a vague resemblance if you're five years old and don't pay too much attention.

I know you ain't callin' my D&D the GoBots to Tolkien as fantasy world's version of Transformers! Them's fightin' words! :mad:

(Nah, I don't give that much of a shit. But I give some, I give some... :cool: )

Quote from: Ulairi;919369I think the % of gamers that actively post on a forum about gaming is a very small % of the number of actual gamer.s

DING! Winner!

MOST gamers are "casuals." I don't care if the game is WoW or D&D or anything else.  Most of them are casuals.

And to the casual gamer who is also (statistically probably) also a casual reader of Tolkien and every other damn thing, "D&D = LOTR = WoW."

I think the reason is simple.  Standard D&D fantasy is something that most find at least acceptable.  It might not be any player's perfect setting but it is something that people can agree on.  People can actually play it so they buy it.

Quote from: talysman;919152Was there someone who said that D&D isn't Tolkien? I know I said that what the OP defines as "Tolkienesque" has very little Tolkien in it. It has the fantasy races. It has the evil races, often being lead by supernatural big bads. So sure, from the perception of the general public, Tolkien = D&D. But that's not the question being asked, is it? It's "why hasn't anything else become as popular?"

I'd say the fact that D&D only borrowed superficial details like races is part of the reason why it succeeds. It's got something eminently recognizable, and can be used to do "Middle Earth", but it's not Middle Earth by default. It's lacking some of the specific details necessary for Tolkien's literary goals, but which would be detrimental if someone didn't want to play in Middle Earth. It's a kitchen sink setting, a hodge-podge of everything imaginable, without committing to one author's ideals. It can be molded to fit many different preferences, as opposed to a specific fantasy setting that has already made some decisions for you.

You miss my point.  To anybody but a hardcore "Tolkien canon wanker," D&D is INDISTINGUISHABLE from Lord of the Rings.

Most people are casual whatevers.  Casual readers, casual gamers, casual golf players, et cetera.

D&D isn't "Tolkienesque," to the OVERWHELMING majority of people who are familiar with both, they are identical.

Quote from: Simlasa;919371The type of Tolkien you get in D&D is similar to the type of 'Spiderman' toy you buy in the dollar store (actually called Webman or Tarantulaman or maybe Spyders Man). There's a vague resemblance if you're five years old and don't pay too much attention.

Quote from: TristramEvans;919413

That's an apt analogy and also a good insight into what makes D&D tick. Much like Turkish Captain America teams up with El Santo to fight a murderous, money-counterfeiting Spider-Man (I shit you not), D&D's "bootleg Tolkien" gets Gandalf and Bilbo to team up with Conan and Odo of Bayeux to defeat Dracula.

Quote from: Opaopajr;919424I know you ain't callin' my D&D the GoBots to Tolkien as fantasy world's version of Transformers! Them's fightin' words! :mad:

Just to go all geek-pedantic on your metaphor, GoBots are more like E.R. Eddison to Tolkien's Transformers, being as they predated them. Deformers were be the more accurate metaphor ...

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;919448the OVERWHELMING majority of people who are familiar with both, they are identical.

Since when is reality based on majority consensus?

(besides in Mage: The Ascension...)

An overwhelming majority of the populace also thinks we only use 10% of our brains, Napoleon was a dwarf, the Great Wall of China can be seen from space, humans have 5 senses, and vikings had horned helmets. An argument based on the lowest common denominator of belief isn't worth much.