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Why does 5e suck at the Exploration pillar?

Started by Shasarak, September 11, 2019, 05:42:42 PM

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Shasarak

September 11, 2019, 05:42:42 PM
Who da Drow?  U da drow! - hedgehobbit

There will be poor always,
pathetically struggling,
look at the good things you've got! -  Jesus

Rhedyn

#1
September 11, 2019, 05:49:34 PM
PCs are demi-gods.

TJS

#2
September 11, 2019, 07:12:22 PM
Just the exploration pillar?

C'mon it sucks at the social pillar too!

Shasarak

#3
September 11, 2019, 07:28:59 PM
Quote from: TJS;1103535Just the exploration pillar?

C'mon it sucks at the social pillar too!

Sucking at the social pillar is a different blog post.
Who da Drow?  U da drow! - hedgehobbit

There will be poor always,
pathetically struggling,
look at the good things you've got! -  Jesus

Daztur

#4
September 11, 2019, 08:05:09 PM
Far too much healing. Also combat is still too slow which reduces time for other stuff.

cranebump

#5
September 11, 2019, 08:10:17 PM Last Edit: September 11, 2019, 09:08:29 PM by cranebump
Very long read. Some fixes are obvious. Drop Feats, change the rest/recovery parameters. Don't allow Rangers. Nix some spells. It feels like he forgot you can tinker with the game.

That said, I tend to agree things are pretty easy for 5E characters, on the whole. But maybe that just means GMs have to be more creative?
"When devils will the blackest sins put on, they do suggest at first with heavenly shows..."

Omega

#6
September 11, 2019, 08:19:03 PM Last Edit: September 11, 2019, 08:59:34 PM by Omega
Quote from: Daztur;1103539Far too much healing. Also combat is still too slow which reduces time for other stuff.

um? Too slow? We found most combats were over fairly quickly.

trechriron

#7
September 11, 2019, 08:23:17 PM
This dude should pick up GURPS 4th Edition and customize to taste.

Also, what are the rewards? It seems people are not enamored with success, accomplishment, wealth, reputation or political power. They just want more bits. XP = bits.

If you want meaningful shit in your game, then run that kind of game, add the appropriate rewards and encourage the players to engage those parts of the game. Bring consequences. Tap into flaws.

If you are only awarding players for Combat, it's the only thing they are going to care about.
Trentin C Bergeron (trechriron)
Bard, Creative & RPG Enthusiast
----------------------------------------------------------------------
D.O.N.G. Black-Belt (Thanks tenbones!)

HappyDaze

#8
September 11, 2019, 08:31:24 PM
Quote from: cranebump;1103540Very long read. Some fixes are obvious. Drop Feats, change the rest/recovery parameters. Don't allow Rangers. Nix some spells. It feels like he forgot you can tinker with the game.

That said, I tend to agree things are pretty easy for 5E characters, on the whole. But maybe that just means GMs have to Ben more creative?

Rangers are often considered suboptimal for combat, so taking them is a tradeoff of exploration utility vs. combat power. Even then, no single ranger has every favored terrain.

As for spells, the trick is again to make it a tradeoff. If the spells that reduce exploration challenges are taken, then make sure those slots are not also available to boost combat power. This requires properly injecting a mix of combat into your exploration, whether through random encounters or planned ones.

As for dropping feats, which ones do you feel negatively impact exploration? Most of those I've seen are combat boosts, and again, if they take an exploration boost they are forgoing a combat boost (or a general boost through an ASI).

TJS

#9
September 11, 2019, 08:32:57 PM
Quote from: cranebump;1103540Very long read. Some fixes are obvious. Drop Feats, change the rest/recovery parameters. Don't allow Rangers. Nix some spells. It feels like he forgot you can tinker with the game.

That said, I tend to agree things are pretty easy for 5E characters, on the whole. But maybe that just means GMs have to Ben more creative?
I think he's very much aware you can tinker with the game - given so many of his blog posts do just that.

He's just, as he says, identifying the issue.

Shasarak

#10
September 11, 2019, 08:33:37 PM
Quote from: trechriron;1103542If you are only awarding players for Combat, it's the only thing they are going to care about.

Growing up with games which reward you for finding Gold and doing things that your class should be doing does shape your expectations.
Who da Drow?  U da drow! - hedgehobbit

There will be poor always,
pathetically struggling,
look at the good things you've got! -  Jesus

VincentTakeda

#11
September 11, 2019, 08:35:10 PM
Generally pleased with this rant. As a person who started playing primarily to explore, I do feel like newer games have murdered my playstyle a bit.  I tended to play the 'convenience wizards' that learned the spells that trivialized these things so that the party would have an appreciation for such a frail person coming along in the first place.

TJS

#12
September 11, 2019, 08:36:02 PM Last Edit: September 11, 2019, 08:40:05 PM by TJS
Quote from: HappyDaze;1103543Rangers are often considered suboptimal for combat, so taking them is a tradeoff of exploration utility vs. combat power. Even then, no single ranger has every favored terrain.

As for spells, the trick is again to make it a tradeoff. If the spells that reduce exploration challenges are taken, then make sure those slots are not also available to boost combat power. This requires properly injecting a mix of combat into your exploration, whether through random encounters or planned ones.
Sounds too complicated to GM.  Just nix them.

But exploration is difficult because there's no clear mode of play anymore.

Mostly it seems to default to make a role - is there a wandering monster - yes/no? boring.

No wonder it gets skipped.

Heavy Josh

#13
September 11, 2019, 08:39:35 PM
Solid article. I have players who gripe at encumbrance rules, fuel/food/water/ammo tracking...and then they get the item or ability that makes the problem go away and I'm their hero.  

This article does illustrate one other thing for me: holy fucking balls Christ if you're going to fucking swear, swear. Don't use s&$%! and f$&! like some family oriented Sunday comic. Fuck.
When you find yourself on the side of the majority, you should pause and reflect. -- Mark Twain

cranebump

#14
September 11, 2019, 09:11:03 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1103543Rangers are often considered suboptimal for combat, so taking them is a tradeoff of exploration utility vs. combat power. Even then, no single ranger has every favored terrain.

As for spells, the trick is again to make it a tradeoff. If the spells that reduce exploration challenges are taken, then make sure those slots are not also available to boost combat power. This requires properly injecting a mix of combat into your exploration, whether through random encounters or planned ones.

As for dropping feats, which ones do you feel negatively impact exploration? Most of those I've seen are combat boosts, and again, if they take an exploration boost they are forgoing a combat boost (or a general boost through an ASI).

Makes sense. But then, I'm not a Feat fan to begin with. Which means I'm teeth grinding a lot, because, in order to scratch my current gaming itch, I joine a PF2 group recently. (Sigh) oh, the compromises...
"When devils will the blackest sins put on, they do suggest at first with heavenly shows..."
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