Quote from: blakkieWhich of course doesn't need a random roll to happen. So forcing the player one way or another in a random roll is often (but not always) counterproductive.

How about: sometimes random roll forces you out of your comfort zone as a player, and maybe suggests a type of character that you wouldn't have thought up on your own.

I mean, I have one player who is excellent, very well-rounded.  He role-plays well, and he also makes a point of being familiar with rules.  But he also tends to play one of two personalities (Jack Nicholson syndrome), no matter the game or genre.

In our Classic Trav game (starting this week...I hope!), we're using straight random roll (death in generation and all).  The characters that this particular player rolled up don't fit his comfort zone at all.  Instead of moping about and complaining about the dehumanizing machinery of character creation, he rose to the challenge and created two wonderful personalities for his PCs.  The random numbers forced him to stretch his boundaries a little, and I think he's a better player for it.  As a matter of fact, he's told me that he's stoked to play his dopey, spoiled noble flirting with space piracy (in a yacht!) because those random rolls forced him to come up with a new approach to playing his characters.

IMHO, YMMV, etc.

I don't think I can relate to any of these.

In our games, we generally talk about what we want to do (gameworld/genre/character types) and then everyone makes a character while the GM develops the intro.  That establishes character desires, setting, genre, gameworld in one fell swoop.  

If I ever joined a game that was already running, or was running a game where someone wanted to join, we clearly defined the setting/genre/gameworld/character types and the player created something to fit.

Where does all this angst between players and GMs come from?  In nearly 30 years of gaming, I've never (personally) encountered it.

Quote from: flyingmiceOf course you don't have to force the player! That's what directed and semi-directed chargen is all about! I'm not trying to champion pure random chargen! I'm just trying to explain how it could be percieved as fun back in the bad old days when we didn't know any better!  

I could care less what chargen people prefer! Whatever floats your boat! SHEEESH!

No need to get upset. I assumed we were talking about random character generation in the context of this thread, where it was postulated that this method could solve the problems introduced in the original post. All I'm saying is that it might bring up other problems, especially with players (and/or DM) who had the original problems.

In this context, _forcing_ the players to do something is what it's all about, i.e. creating a situation where someone complaining about his character choice because of the campaign just doesn't work. You do this by creating a situation where the choice of character is forced upon him by the rules (more or less). Which (IMHO) isn't a good solution for this particular kind of player-DM conflict.

Discussing the merits of random generation in general would be the material for another thread. And as the lucky few who were able to see my day-to-day choice of underwear and socks can confirm, I'm all about randomness.

Quote from: KenHRHow about: sometimes random roll forces you out of your comfort zone as a player, and maybe suggests a type of character that you wouldn't have thought up on your own.

I think that's where "random with considerable player choice" comes in. But there are other ways of getting people out and about. Why didn't you challenge that player previously to branch out?

QuoteWhatever! Way cool and rock on, dude! I couldn't care less! My only point when I launched into this stupid mess was that it isn't a freaking disaster to use pure random chargen! That it could be fun in games that were designed around it!

I think you missed where I was going. That "designing a game for random" largely means toning down the longterm influence of the the individual random rolls. Unless I suppose the entire game is about instilling a feeling of a futile struggle to escape misery, like WFRPG.  ((which incidentally the character generation of which seems to have gotten decent reviews))

QuoteYou all seem to be thinking I give a rat's left testicle!

Yes, your continued posting on the subject had left me with tha misconception. :mischief:

Quote from: VellorianIn our games, we generally talk about what we want to do (gameworld/genre/character types) and then everyone makes a character while the GM develops the intro.  That establishes character desires, setting, genre, gameworld in one fell swoop.  

If I ever joined a game that was already running, or was running a game where someone wanted to join, we clearly defined the setting/genre/gameworld/character types and the player created something to fit.

Wisdom.

Ned

Quote from: blakkieI think that's where "random with considerable player choice" comes in. But there are other ways of getting people out and about. Why didn't you challenge that player previously to branch out?

He was having fun.

Quote from: VellorianIn our games, we generally talk about what we want to do (gameworld/genre/character types) and then everyone makes a character while the GM develops the intro.  That establishes character desires, setting, genre, gameworld in one fell swoop.

Which is what underlies "player empowerment". At least the type that hasn't caught a flight to Uraguay, hunted down RPGPundit, and killed his dog.

Quote from: SosthenesNo need to get upset. I assumed we were talking about random character generation in the context of this thread, where it was postulated that this method could solve the problems introduced in the original post. All I'm saying is that it might bring up other problems, especially with players (and/or DM) who had the original problems.

In this context, _forcing_ the players to do something is what it's all about, i.e. creating a situation where someone complaining about his character choice because of the campaign just doesn't work. You do this by creating a situation where the choice of character is forced upon him by the rules (more or less). Which (IMHO) isn't a good solution for this particular kind of player-DM conflict.

Discussing the merits of random generation in general would be the material for another thread. And as the lucky few who were able to see my day-to-day choice of underwear and socks can confirm, I'm all about randomness.

OK - apparently I wasn't following the thread that closely. As you sa, any design choice has plusses and minuses. You always trade off for what package of benefits vs drawbacks you prefer, or you compromise in between and create your own package. If you are designing an airplane, you choose aluminum over steel because weight is more important than strength. If you are designing tanks, your choice would be very different.

In the case of using pure Random Chargen as a tool to limit player character appropriateness, the player's choice is made once - at the buy-in. The player then chooses to limit himself to the method of chargen presented. If the player can't abide that, the valid choice is to leave, not agree and attempt to undermine it.

-clash

Quote from: KenHRHe was having fun.

...aaaand...you think he wouldn't if he got out of his comfort zone?  Think about that. How is it okay for for totally random character generation to take away someone's "fun" (potentially replacing it with something else) when you don't feel it is appropriate to just straight up encourage him to choose something different?

Quote from: JimBobOzWe see these guys a lot online. Some of them go on to write rpgs with no GMs. What's their story? Did a GM tie them up and force them to play games they didn't like?

I can understand not trusting the GM to do a good job, plenty fuck it up. But why would you not trust the GM to want to do a good job? Why would you think the GM is there to ruin your fun?

This may not be true in every case, but let me throw this out here:

Some players have already played the game in their heads.  To them, the experience that they want to get out of the game is very clear and precise, and everything...  rules, GM, other players are there to facilitate that experience.

Anything else brooks disappointment.

Sometimes vehement disappointment.  ANGRY disappointment.  "OMG that GM totally didn't run game X right!" disappointment.

They build up a number of disappointing experiences under their belt and eventually they burn out, get bitter, whatever.  The game in their heads is simply not going to match up to what they encounter at the table, and compromise is difficult if not impossible.

It's a hell of a nasty spiral to start floating your way down.  I know because I've been there.  And I blame it pretty squarely on games that sell you a particular experience and (more importantly) have a dissonance between that and what actual play they facilitate.

In ye olden dayes, I got excited about roleplaying with AD&D, which had what I'd call "situational" play.  There was no discussion of theme or mood or other jibber-jabber.  There were the rules, the classes, the races, the monsters, and the loot.  What you did with it as GM and players was your own business.  It could be Expedition to the Barrier Peaks gooniness with spacemen or it could be Lord of the Rings: Steve's Saga, with all the pathos and gritty realism you could muster.  Only with stuff like Ravenloft did specific "playstyle" advice start creeping in.

Well, I came back into roleplaying with the World of Darkness, and let me tell you...  nothing will shatter illusions faster than being sold on a game of "dark, brooding, personal horror" and playing a game with gothic superheroes and sex puppets.

If there's a victim mentality, I think that often it's bred from broken expectations.  From all sides.

Note that many of these weird-ass indie games are about creating a very specific experience.

Sorry if that was rambling and...  oh, hi.  I'm new.  

Although I want to come down on Must Play A Ninja Lad for being an unimaginative tool, I'd also like to note that some GMs are too in love with their own vision of their campaign.

Quote from: RedFoxSorry if that was rambling and...  oh, hi.  I'm new.  

Not to me! Hi Red!

-clash

Quote from: jrientsAlthough I want to come down on Must Play A Ninja Lad for being an unimaginative tool, I'd also like to note that some GMs are too in love with their own vision of their campaign.

Being "too in love with my own campaign" - now, that, I've done.  Not for years, but I can remember it.

Also, "failing to pitch the game well and clearly"?  Done that, too.

Quote from: blakkie...aaaand...you think he wouldn't if he got out of his comfort zone?  Think about that. How is it okay for for totally random character generation to take away someone's "fun" (potentially replacing it with something else) when you don't feel it is appropriate to just straight up encourage him to choose something different?

I think it's up to him to decide when he's good and ready to break type.  Hell, he's shoehorned his standard personalities into random guys before, so I figured nothing would stop him this time around.  But he felt ready to make the switch.  If he didn't feel ready, I'd have still said, "Rock on."

Random chargen doesn't take away anyone's fun.  I let them roll up six characters apiece (CT takes 10 minutes to gen up a new guy) and choose who they wanted, with an eye toward making a complete and well-rounded crew.  They had to make some hard choices with the latter requirement, but no one came out with something they didn't like.

Quote from: KenHRI think it's up to him to decide when he's good and ready to break type.

Sure. I picked the word "challenge" very specifically, as opposed to "forced". As in "Hey, you've played a bruiser thug type for the last 6 games. I'm getting a bit bored with it, and I think you've got something else to show us.  You want to try something different this time? Like a sneaky type or an academic or something? Anything I can do to help get that sort of character to work for you?" Which is why I'm not big on totally random character generators. Often you end up just hassling people to go through the backflips of subverting and overriding what they roll up, and generally annoying them in the places where they can't. *shrug*