Whenever I become embroiled in a debate over RPGs, it typically tends to involve unfortunate misconceptions about the system or setting of a specific game in itself: "a spell in Mage: The Ascension either fails horribly or succeeds completely without any middle ground between the two outcomes", to use a recent example, or "a PC in Nobilis can accomplish anything as long as the player just keeps spending all the miracle points she wants." What other people do for fun is no skin off my nose, though, and I don't really see the point of trying to argue that someone's taste is objectively wrong.

Quote from: grubmanWhat is there to be gained in this action?

Three things.

1. It is (should be) an intellectual exercise. By pointing out that game x sucks, and most importantly why it sucks, the writer explores, organizes, and reinforces his thoughts about his own gaming preferences. What something is not is just as important as what something is.

2. It's fun watching other people get pissy about opinions. Really, really fun. Some people on the internet pretend like their civil rights have been violated if someone is allowed to disparage their gaming preferences.

3. Sometimes, suckas gotta know.

Quote from: SettembriniThere are people who are AFRAID of regular gaming, because they SUCK at it. They are pretty keen on telling why other people´s games suck.

I suppose there must be.  Somewhere

But then maybe some people just hate how the entire world seems to identify their hobby by a game that sucks.

Quote from: LancerProblem is that people don't like to hear criticism of their favorite games, no matter how they are stated.

Of course, how well-stated, apt, etc., those "criticisms" are is in the eye of the beholder. People say tons of dumb stuff.

Seanchai

Quote from: David RHow you could consider your behaviour civil when you use the term sucks when describing someone else's preference.

It's not the suck part, but the being ignorant part that's fun.

Seanchai

I always thought that people would argue against someone else about a game, not because he wants to change his mind, but because he wants to change other peoples' minds.  I've rarely seen someone change their mind about a topic, especially about liking something.  However, I've seen someone make up their mind after reading a topic on a forum.

So... telling someone a game they like sucks, in a certain way, can persuade third parties.  It's basically an easy way to display propaganda.

Quote from: LancerA group may not find something better than what they currently are playing. But it sure doesn't hurt to try out new things , if for nothing else, than to expand one's own horizons. Just what is the harm in that?

None. None whatsoever.

But if they don't want to try new things, that's their business. In fact, that's their right. You don't get to be the Jesus Christ of the gaming world, bringing enlightenment to the masses.

Mentioning other games, etc., is awesome. But if they're not interested, that should be the end of the conversation. If you continue to press it, talking about how sheltered they are, you're a dick.

Seanchai

Quote from: grubmanWe see it over and over on the internet.  What is there to be gained in this action?

Gamers like to bitch.  When a gamer actually takes the time to post a response on the internet, then they are really in the mood to bitch or discuss a particular topic.  Like me, just now.  I typed a response musing about the fact that gamers like to bitch.

It doesn't matter what the topic is, gamers like to bitch.  Some gamers like to pee in other people's cheerios, while others are just bitching because they have nothing better to do at that particular moment in time.

Hell, bitching about meaningless minutia is kind of fun, possibly even cathartic, so there you have it.

We live in a dog eat dog hobby and every other gamer is wearing milk bone underwear.

Quote from: LancerJeff, except I am not insulting anybody.

Uh, yeah, you are.

Seanchai

In my frankly inestimable experience  ;

I, of course, have game preferences and game dislikes.

My preferences often overlap with my group's dislikes, and vice versa.

For example, our group is currently playing AD&D 2nd edition. We played 3e for many years, but the group decided they preferred 2nd edition and switched back.

I LOATHE 2nd edition with the burning hatred of ten thousand suns!

But you know what? I'm having fun playing!

I've played lots of games I disliked, and I've disliked them for various reasons, but every time I've had fun!

The only time I don't have fun in a game is with a crappy GM. I've played in games I love and hated the experience because of a crappy GM.

So, as a result, I'll pretty much not dis a game I dislike on the internet. There's no real point.

I just wish other gamers would realize that with a good GM and good friends, you can have fun playing even the most insipid game.

Heck, I just with the other gamers in my group would realize that! It'd be a lot easier to sell campaigns to them!

Quote from: SeanchaiNone. None whatsoever.

But if they don't want to try new things, that's their business. In fact, that's their right. You don't get to be the Jesus Christ of the gaming world, bringing enlightenment to the masses.

If you continue to press it, talking about how sheltered they are, you're a dick.

I hope you are not directing this at me personally, but in a general sense. I certainly don't believe that only my gaming preferences are valid and everyone else needs to listen to the tenets proposed by Lancer's Gaming Sermon as the only true Word.

QuoteMentioning other games, etc., is awesome. But if they're not interested, that should be the end of the conversation.
Seanchai

I agree. I have no quarrel with you here.

Quote from: EvilschemerI just wish other gamers would realize that with a good GM and good friends, you can have fun playing even the most insipid game.

Heck, I just with the other gamers in my group would realize that! It'd be a lot easier to sell campaigns to them!

Your words ring true, Chris. I may also add that games are further improved when the players and GM all see eye to eye with one another-- Such is the case when playing with close friends that know each other well, and/or have been playing with each other for a long time.
So the whole "social dynamics" thing is pretty important too. Comfort level is important.

Quote from: LancerI hope you are not directing this at me personally, but in a general sense.

No, at you. There's a reason that out of all the folks who said they didn't like 3e in the other thread, you and walkerp are drawing heat.

Seanchai

Quote from: grubmanUnrelated to any specific game...

I mean seriously...I understand trying to convince people that games you like are great!  But, why try to convince people that like, love, or are at least open minded that a game sucks...and they have no reason to like it (or are at least stupid or inferior for not thinking it sucks)?

We see it over and over on the internet.  What is there to be gained in this action?

Well, noting first that I don't think Lancer did that, so as to be clear I'm not piling on him (I think he was part of a conversation that went haywire, but I wouldn't put it higher than that personally), sometimes it's just incredulity.

Let's take an example.  I think AD&D is a terrible game, truly sucktastic, I don't often say that as it's a bit rude and I've learnt to my (genuine) amazement that not everyone agrees.

Now, I still struggle to see how someone can think it's a good game and yet manage to live an independent life without the need for professional care, but I've learnt that there are many mystifying things in life and this is but one.

That said, that incredulity can lead you further than you mean to go, as you investigate exactly why someone's view is so utterly different from your own.  Honest curiosity can lapse into unintentional rudeness and from there as people push back to entrenched bitter conflict.  It's surprisingly easily done.

So, ask first I think, does this person genuinely think this is a terrible game and are they simply trying to understand how anyone could like it?  That won't necessarily take you to a good place, but it may enable you to defuse things by saying something like "hey, I get you think this is terrible and struggle to see why anyone would like it, but some of us do.  If you'd like to see why I'm happy to say, but I don't really want my reasons shot down particularly" and see how that flies.

Quote from: Elliot WilenYou'd be correct.:bunny:

Few people realize that in RL Elliot actually is a six-foot tall rabbit.

Only I can see him, though, which occasionally complicates things, even in the Bay Area.