I was joking, Grubman, but you have started this kind of thread many times in the past.

There is a thin line between critical analysis and just being negative.  I think Lancer and myself have both been pretty consistent to talk about our experiences and our perspectives.  Why can't we feel that 3.x sucks?  Pundit thinks SotC sucks and it's one of my favourite games.  We argued about it.*  It's not the end of the world.  





*I won.

Quote from: LancerEDIT: BTW, Elliot. People's tastes can evolve over time as a direct result of exposure to different things. This is nothing new and I don't know why you have a problem with that.

I don't; to suggest that I do is a mischaracterization of what I've been saying.

EDIT: removed an overly dramatic adjective.

Quote from: walkerpbut you have started this kind of thread many times in the past.

There is a possibility that I have once or twice.  Sometimes when a thread goes out of controll I like to start a new thread about a tangent that would otherwise be lost in the original.  I don't think that is hardly a new practice, and I don't think trying to point a finger at me to make it look like I did some inapropriate, selfish, childish thing is exactly fair.  As far as "many times"  I'd sure like links to many such threads so I can eat my words.

Both Lancer and I base our position that people can be not aware of better things out there, because both of us were those people.  I played 3.x for quite a while and had a really good time most of the time, but eventually I just bumped up against what were for me limitations of the system.  I started to look around, eventually found other stuff.  When I introduced that other stuff to the group, they quite enjoyed it.  But none of them would have looked around, if it wasn't for me.  I think they now feel that they have more gaming options than they did before.  During the peak of our 3.x playing, we would discuss other genres but a sort of steampunk-modified D&D was about as far as we could conceive.  Playing a present-day game just didn't even come into our minds as feasible.  I think there are a lot of gamers like this today.  It's not presumptious to say that if they were given the taste of something different, they might then want to try other different things.

It's like food or movies or books.  Sure you might be happy with burgers or blockbusters or Tom Clancy but you might be quite psyched to check out some other culture's food or a good hong kong movie or Desmond Bagley.  You may still enjoy a burger but now you have more choices, which you didn't have before.

Quote from: grubmanThere is a possibility that I have once or twice.  Sometimes when a thread goes out of controll I like to start a new thread about a tangent that would otherwise be lost in the original.  I don't think that is hardly a new practice, and I don't think trying to point a finger at me to make it look like I did some inapropriate, selfish, childish thing is exactly fair.  As far as "many times"  I'd sure like links to many such threads so I can eat my words.

My apologies if I have offended you, Grubman.  At the risk of further offending you, I will say that I was not trying to paint you as someone who does inappropriate, selfish or childish things but that you just are a bit over-sensitive online at times (though I am probably the on the bottom of the list to be pointing such a finger).  I think that at this point, you would be quite used to this kind of stuff going down on internet gaming forums.

Anyways, my real question is about if you did a Freeport adventure for SW or not.

Quote from: Elliot WilenI don't; to suggest that I do is a grotesque mischaracterization of what I've been saying.

You mean like the way you mischaracterized my quote?- Claiming that I fail to believe that one's tastes aren't one's own?

I would never believe that. But at least we are even.

This is the problem with internet forums and discussions such as these. People just end up mis-quoting and mis-reading other people's points.

Quote from: walkerpAnyways, my real question is about if you did a Freeport adventure for SW or not.

The only fantasy adventure for Savage Worlds that I published online was for Evernight, and I've since removed it.

So here's what I'm hearing, walker. You didn't fully enjoy your D&D. You somehow found out about other games...is it really that hard, BTW? You tried them, you liked them.

What's missing from this is you and Lancer have, at various points in the discussion, argued that people who think they're happy with their game are unconsciously unhappy.

Quote from: walkerpMy apologies if I have offended you, Grubman.  

Not offended, it takes a lot more than that.  I just like to explain myself...rather than jut post a rolled eyes picture.

Quote from: Elliot WilenWhat's missing from this is you and Lancer have, at various points in the discussion, argued that people who think they're happy with their game are unconsciously unhappy.

I have? Are you sure you aren't getting us confused with Ron Edwards?

People are happy with the games they play, or else they wouldn't be playing them. Whether or not there are other games they would like even more, if made aware of them, is a different story.

Quote from: Elliot WilenWhat's missing from this is you and Lancer have, at various points in the discussion, argued that people who think they're happy with their game are unconsciously unhappy.

No, you have made this logical leap that we have done so.  I don't know where this comes from.  I think it's the last residue of the faux-swine wars or something.  We have not said that.  I have never said that or thought that.

Quote from: walkerpI was joking, Grubman, but you have started this kind of thread many times in the past.

It's because he's a big girl's blouse. He might even QUIT THE BOARD FOREVER soon. Um, again.

Why do people try to convince others that games suck? I don't know. Why does their attempt bother you?

*ringring*
"Hello?"
"Hey, Jim, it's Bob. Wanna come out tonight with the fellahs? We're having a few drinks and shooting some pool. And Joe will be there, remember him? We haven't see him for years."
"I can't." *tappity tap* "Someone is wrong on the internet."
*click*

Quote from: Elliot WilenWhereas what goes on all the time in RPG discussions is that people are told their tastes and opinions matter so little that they should should listen to some supposedly wiser critic.

Hence dickish behaviour.

Walker seems to think that folks who don't want to try new things are market controlled zombies. This is grade A Swine think right here. (Don't get me wrong, I think walker is an interesting poster, but on this subject, he's deluded)

It's not about the opinion Elliot, it's about the manner of expression. It's the difference between calling a game a piece of shit and saying the game just does not work for you.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: LancerYou mean like the way you mischaracterized my quote?- Claiming that I fail to believe that one's tastes aren't one's own?

Now I can't even tell if you've comprehended what I wrote.

What I meant was that you've said some things which suggest you don't believe that other people have different tastes from you. You wrote that many fans of D&D "just don't know any better. I certainly didn't when I used to be ignorant about skill-based systems and defended AD&D against them." This as part of questioning the premise that "most gamers think D&D is the best game on the market".

There are three possibilities here.

I. Many people have different tastes from Lancer (and Elliot). They like D&D because it satisfies those tastes very, very well, compared to the alternatives.

II. People who like D&D aren't really well served by it either at the individual or the group level. They'd quickly choose something else if they knew about it and could find players for it.

III. People who like D&D are quite well served by it, compared to the alternatives. Maybe they'd choose something else if they could find players for it. But in reality, if they each chose something else, they'd find they couldn't agree on which specific alternative to use. In other words, sure, Joey might enjoy playing d6 Fantasy more than D&D, but the other members of the group might not--Steve might prefer GURPS, then D&D, then d6, and Beth might want FATE, then D&D, then d6. (In economics/game theory I believe this is equivalent to saying that D&D is pareto optimal.)

If your quote is not saying (II), then I apologize for misintepreting you.

Quote from: David RIt's not about the opinion Elliot, it's about the manner of expression. It's the difference between calling a game a piece of shit and saying the game just does not work for you.

I get what you're saying. I understand how someone would be more offended by having their favorite game called crap as opposed to the other person saying they just don't care for it. But I don't personally react very strongly to that; I mean this is the Internet after all and people express all sorts of opinions in a strong fashion.

Claims of delusion or closed-mindedness on the other hand make it impossible for me to give people the benefit of an implicit "IMHO" in front of their comments.