Quote from: SaphimAccording to that logic micheal jackson is the best musician ever.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_albums_worldwide

I beg to differ.
Thriller is just the most sold album. D&D is just the most sold game. The numbers don't say anything above that.

I, for one, have never heard anyone claim that Thriller, or Michael Jackson for that matter, was 'Bad'.

Maybe not to taste, but never 'teh suck'.

In fact, even taking Bonzo and Iron Lungs and the Elephant Man's Skeleton into account, during a very long period of time MJ could 'do no wrong'... which only began ending once the first allegations of pedophilia surfaced.

In fact I am reasonably certain that if I looked hard enough in the right circles I could find an analysis (collegiate paper thingy???) of Thriller that attempted to establish academically why it was 'objectively good'.

If I... you know... cared.


- Spike, whose main entertainment these days is trollbaiting....

As best I know, D&D is still the best selling game in France, there are some interesting differences to the French rpg market but I'm not sure this is the best thread for them.

Quote from: RPGPunditDude, no one gives a fuck about Germany or France.

RPGPundit

So, I am probably that no one...

I like Kurt Weill, though this is largely on the strength of Ute Lemper's performances...so...I like Ute Lemper.

Quote from: BalbinusRe IaWA, I haven't played it yet, not sure when I'll get to. A bit indie for my group (as indeed are most indie games for most groups).

If you do, I'd be interested. That's really the thing here, IaWA sounds like it might be interesting, but I'm not going to buy it on the strength of that alone, or even someone's reading of it whose tastes I think are similar to mine. I've bought or played several Forge games on the strength of hype and relayed readings, even AP by certain people, but the experience has taught me to largely discount the value of anything said in their favor except for AP by people whose opinions I value.

EDIT: or even better, AP by myself, with someone else largely footing the bill, as at a con. However here I think I'm likely to run into a serious problem, which is that the games, not surprisingly, attract people who are receptive to the hype--in other words, I'd probably be sitting down at a table with at least one Temple.

Quote from: Elliot WilenI like Kurt Weill, though this is largely on the strength of Ute Lemper's gorgeous long legs...

:naughty:

Quote from: Elliot WilenI like Kurt Weill, though this is largely on the strength of Ute Lemper's performances...so...I like Ute Lemper.

If you do, I'd be interested. That's really the thing here, IaWA sounds like it might be interesting, but I'm not going to buy it on the strength of that alone, or even someone's reading of it whose tastes I think are similar to mine. I've bought or played several Forge games on the strength of hype and relayed readings, even AP by certain people, but the experience has taught me to largely discount the value of anything said in their favor except for AP by people whose opinions I value.

EDIT: or even better, AP by myself, with someone else largely footing the bill, as at a con. However here I think I'm likely to run into a serious problem, which is that the games, not surprisingly, attract people who are receptive to the hype--in other words, I'd probably be sitting down at a table with at least one Temple.

The difficulty here, is it's explicitly a campaign focussed game, so even a con tryout isn't really going to show whether it delivers or not.

Ah, I think I was aware of that, but somehow I got IaWA mixed up with Poison'd in mid-post.

Quote from: ClaudiusI've always been surprised by the success Das schwarze Auge has had in Germany, even above D&D, it would be interesting to know why.

An American gamer after reading this might think that people in Europe like artsy :rolleyes:  games, but it depends of every country. In my home country, Spain, D&D3 is king. No doubt about this. I don't live any longer in Poland, but I got the impression that D&D was doing well there. It depends.

Regarding France, is it true that D&D is not the main seller there? I thought the situation of D&D in France was similar to the one here.

There's a simple reason for all this.

DSA is essentially a D&D-clone; in its earliest forms it was even moreso than today, if I'm not mistaken.  And it was written in German, by Germans. So its a language-barrier issue. DSA came out and took hold of the market before a decent German edition of D&D could do so.

Why did this not happen in Spain? Simple.  The Spanish translation of D&D was one of the top concerns as far as translation works were concerned for D&D; they translated to Spanish and got the Spanish-language version of the game out earlier and with more effort because from an American perspective (and really, just common sense) that was the biggest obvious priority and the best potential market for them.  

That's why pretty much in every Spanish-speaking country (just like virtually every English-speaking country), D&D is the top RPG, whereas in almost every other country D&D ended up coming in second to a local homegrown D&D-clone game. Its the same in latinamerica; every country in latinamerica has D&D as its top RPG EXCEPT Brazil, where spanish isn't the national language.

RPGPundit

Quote from: BalbinusAs best I know, D&D is still the best selling game in France, there are some interesting differences to the French rpg market but I'm not sure this is the best thread for them.

Fine then... go off and start a new thread. What's this interesting difference you speak of?

From youtube it seems that the same high geek, high camp factor is involved, however, may have missed vital some subtle clues.

There some existential factor involved?

Quote from: SaphimAccording to that logic micheal jackson is the best musician ever.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_albums_worldwide

I beg to differ.
Thriller is just the most sold album. D&D is just the most sold game. The numbers don't say anything above that.

As some vague concept of "Art" (which of course music is), you can try to argue that of course Thriller is a vastly inferior album to many other albums that sold far worse.

However, RPGs are NOT "art", they are motherfucking GAMES. The definition of a successful game must be that it is popular with people and that people want to play it.

And just like (putting aside any question of artistic merit) one must argue that in terms of craftsmanship and recognizing what works for its audience, Thriller is indeed a better album than, say "Yoko Ono's Greatest Hits"; one has to recognize that in terms of craftsmanship and recognizing what will actually work and appeal to people, D&D is an objectively better game than My Life With Master.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditThere's a simple reason for all this.

DSA is essentially a D&D-clone; in its earliest forms it was even moreso than today, if I'm not mistaken.  And it was written in German, by Germans. So its a language-barrier issue.

This is borne out by what my Hungarian friend told me. Throughout the 1980s lots of people wanted to roleplay, they heard about D&D, and there were lots of photocopied English versions. But TSR wouldn't translate into Hungarian, or even send the English versions there.

So some Hungarians wrote their own version.

Then in the 1990s after the transformation, a zillion people were gaming, but the native Hungarian game was most popular - suddenly the guys who used to have to photocopy it could get it printed properly. And Wizards wandered up with D&D, but it was a bit late.

I don't know how things stand now, but the basic point remains - the most popular rpg in your country is likely to be the first one that comes out in your native language. And the one most like D&D

Quote from: RPGPunditAs some vague concept of "Art" (which of course music is), you can try to argue that of course Thriller is a vastly inferior album to many other albums that sold far worse.

However, RPGs are NOT "art", they are motherfucking GAMES. The definition of a successful game must be that it is popular with people and that people want to play it.

You know, few hundrets years ago music wasn't considered "art"...

Quote from: FritzsYou know, few hundrets years ago music wasn't considered "art"...

And what was it considered than?

Anyway... there are some similiarities between game, art and ritual. But despite these similarites those three things are not the same.

Quote from: Kyle AaronI don't know how things stand now, but the basic point remains - the most popular rpg in your country is likely to be the first one that comes out in your native language. And the one most like D&D

True for Czech republic as well. We've got unchallenged D&D clone round here. The TSR/WotC licensing policy is reason for this. Because there were at least three attempts to buy licence for reasonable price, without success.

Quote from: RPGPundit2000 copies is considered a RUNAWAY "success" by the forge crowd; it makes it one of the very best-selling forge games ever; and that's still multiple orders of magnitude below the sales levels of games that normal people would consider "successful".

Interesting thing is, how long does it take to sell 2000 copies of Forge game. Years essentially. Now, I've just checked blog of Simon J Rogers (Pelgrane Press), he wrote, that Trail of Cthulhu has sold the initiall run of 2000 copies (in like 2 months) and there are going to reprint.

Now Pelgrane is not some big player right, so this is good comparison. Trail is such a mix of traditional elements and some newer stuff and it somehow sells better. Fascinating indeed.

Quote from: Elliot WilenAh, I think I was aware of that, but somehow I got IaWA mixed up with Poison'd in mid-post.

For a variety of reasons, not least among them it's utter lack of historicity, I have no interest in Poison'd.