Quote from: Pierce InverarityActually, that wasn't you. It was me.

Clearly, when I said, "Bad WotC! Bad WotC!" I meant that they'd done a highly intelligent thing. Sorry for the confusion on your end.

Seanchai

Quote from: walkerpSet what up?!  A furtid sexual encounter?  I can't even remember the context of my quote so I'm not sure if I'm up for that sort of thing.

I fixed my post. I know you're not up for a furtid sexual encounter - remember when you got drunk and told us about the time you got overexcited and accidentally overinflated your implant until it popped?

Besides, I've I'm gonna go guy, I want some moobs. From what I can tell browsing the Palladium forum, RIFTS fanboys seem to deliver in that department. So Lancer it is...

Seanchai

Quote from: SeanchaiClearly, when I said, "Bad WotC! Bad WotC!" I meant that they'd done a highly intelligent thing. Sorry for the confusion on your end.

Seanchai

No, you were feebly trying to be ironic. Pathetic fail, but the effort counts.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityNo, you were feebly trying to be ironic.

Er, no. I was trying to intimate that they were a bad dog which needed to be slapped on the nose with a newspaper. I'd look up the word "ironic" before using it again - it doesn't mean what you think it does.

Seanchai

Maybe, beacasuse some games really do suck...

Quote from: FritzsMaybe, beacasuse some games really do suck...

Really? Try to be more specific about which game suck and why. We will see, if there is general agreement on that one.

Alnag: FATAL...? Racial Holy War...? I think we could agree at for example these games...

Quote from: FritzsAlnag: FATAL...? Racial Holy War...? I think we could agree at for example these games...

I wonder... have you read any of those two, you mention. Or do you mention them just because others mention them often. What elements of those two mentioned above or any other you find sucking are those that create this feeling? Do you belive that designers of those games have those feelings about them as well. Or might it be so, that there is still a group of people, though generally silent and maybe not large enough, that find some pleasure in those products?

I belive, that one can be very clear about his own feelings and evaluation of games. I tend not to belive in objective (universal) kind of evaluation. Some games are made famous by vocal minority, some games are silently praised by majority, some games might work only for very small group. But who am I (or you) to say what is good for someone else? How can you, how dare you, to make such decisions for other people?

Quote from: AlnagWhat elements of those two mentioned above or any other you find sucking are those that create this feeling?

Even leaving aside the objectionable content, those two games are simply atrociously designed from the mechanical point of view. Just to point out a few details by the book, in FATAL reaching professional competency in just about any field takes several lifetimes and royalty cannot even earn enough money to buy a suit of armour without saving up for a decade, while RaHoWa basically lacks a functional resolution system of any kind but still forces the PCs, those supposedly "heroic" champions of the white race, to leave their opponents alone when bribed as a special attack.

(Frankly, the one good thing you can say about FATAL is that anyone who reads through the nearly thousand pages of agonizingly dull sexist/racist/homophobic garbage will never compain about the charts in Rolemaster again.)

Quote from: AlnagWhat elements of those two mentioned above or any other you find sucking are those that create this feeling?

Puting aside what Grimgent wrote just names of these games are enought... FATAL stands for "Fantasy adventure to adult lechery" and racial holy war... is well it's fucking RACIAL HOLY WAR...

Quote from: AlnagDo you belive that designers of those games have those feelings about them as well.

No, in the case of FATAL, they were probably making fun of everyone... In the case of RaHoWa, they were stupid enought to not realize what crap were they writing...

Quote from: AlangOr might it be so, that there is still a group of people, though generally silent and maybe not large enough, that find some pleasure in those products?

Probably yes, there might be small and not so vocal communities, who might enjoy these kind of games... but I think that goreans would like something like FATE more than FATAL... while nazis are probably to busy fighting foin the sake of white race to play RPGs (and most of them lacks nessesary brain capacity to do so)

Quote from: AlnagI belive, that one can be very clear about his own feelings and evaluation of games.

Yes... sure...

Quote from: AlnagI tend not to belive in objective (universal) kind of evaluation.

So technicaly you don't belive that 1+1=2, because that's also sort of universal evaulation... yes it's based on some axioms, like everything else.

And, you can say that some game sucks, for example Shab-al-hiri roach sucks (learned the hard way) and it sucks because it failed to provide enjoable and diverse event cards. (Some cards are cool, most of them just suck, and when some player ends up with two, or three sucky cards it's a lot frustrating), well, this is based on axiom, that game should provide means to be enjoyed.

Quote from: AlnagSome games are made famous by vocal minority, some games are silently praised by majority, some games might work only for very small group.

I sence very strong hate towards particular kind of gamers and games in this sentence... that one that calls them swines...

Quote from: AlnagBut who am I (or you) to say what is good for someone else?

Based on some axioms, you can tell that some game sucks, because wast majority of gamers (or even non-gamers) will find it sucky... and you can tell othrs about your oppinions about games you know and when you have bad experience with centrain game, you should warn fellow gamers... well, I am currently trying not to speak bad about games I've never played (I've been not doing this allways, you know), such as RIFTS which scares and repels me with it's apparent inconsistency, but I've never played that, so why speak dirt about it, while I've played Dungeons and Dragons 3.5E several times and disliked that game so my oppinion which I gladyl tell to anyone is that Dungeons and Dragons suck, but well, it's not hte universal suck like for example RaHoWa, but my personal oppinion. Is there anything with sharing my oppinons with other people...?

Quote from: AlnagHow can you, how dare you, to make such decisions for other people?

Only thing I can do is to tell them my oppinion, but it's ultimately up to the to decide.

Fritzs, honestly... did you or did you not see those two games - FATAL and Racial Holy War?

Quote from: FritzsSo technicaly you don't belive that 1+1=2, because that's also sort of universal evaulation... yes it's based on some axioms, like everything else.

Actually... if you leave the straightforward black and white thinking you might see, that 1+1=2 is just one of many possible solutions. Another one might be 11.

Quote from: FritzsAnd, you can say that some game sucks, for example Shab-al-hiri roach sucks (learned the hard way) and it sucks because it failed to provide enjoable and diverse event cards.

And yet, some praise the game... strange.

Quote from: FritzsI sence very strong hate towards particular kind of gamers and games in this sentence... that one that calls them swines...

And who is paranoid here?

Quote from: FritzsBased on some axioms, you can tell that some game sucks, because wast majority of gamers (or even non-gamers) will find it sucky...

So the majority is always right?

Quote from: Fritzswell, I am currently trying not to speak bad about games I've never played

So I suppose, that you've actually played both Fatal and Racial Holy Wars or are you actually contradicting yourself in the same post?

Quote from: Fritzswhile I've played Dungeons and Dragons 3.5E several times and disliked that game so my oppinion which I gladyl tell to anyone is that Dungeons and Dragons suck,

Which contradicts that part about the majority... interesting.

Quote from: FritzsIs there anything with sharing my oppinons with other people...?

Acutally... no. Continue the good work!

FATAL and RaHoWa should be relegated to some kind of Godwin's law of RPG aesthetics discourse.

But, but, but character stats for anal circumference. Anal. Circumference!


EDIT: And no dating rules.

Quote from: AlnagActually... if you leave the straightforward black and white thinking you might see, that 1+1=2 is just one of many possible solutions. Another one might be 11.

I wrote this:

Quote from: Fritzsyes it's based on some axioms, like everything else.

...you know, what axiom is, don't you...?

Quote from: AlnagSo I suppose, that you've actually played both Fatal and Racial Holy Wars or are you actually contradicting yourself in the same post?

These two games failed at entirely different level, it failed at... how to call it, univerzal civilization values and cuctoms... (of our civilization of course)... so it's entirely different situation. I don't blame these games for their rules, but for what they are and I would hate these even if they weren't RPGs but something else... is that clear...?

[QUOTE="Alnag]Which contradicts that part about the majority... interesting.[/QUOTE]

And if it works for majority... OK it's not working for me and to say that I mojority of gamers I know IRL are not playing Dungeons and Dragons... so if they asked me about my oppinionn I would tell them that Dungeons and dragons suck... the fact that most gamers will not finfd it sucky has nothing to do with my oppinion.

To make it clear:

Under most gamers will find it sucky cathegory fall games which for example lacks resolution mechanics,. has too uncosistent rules to be ever played... or game that fails at "civilization values like FATAL where it's explicitly said that this is game about raping.

Unter I find it sucky cathegory fall games I, or you or whoever find them to be sucky. (for example I played Shab al hiri roach and I foud it, but htere might be people that won't call it sucky, for some reason)

You guys are boring me. Stop being boring.

Let's review the OP, which a number of people must not have read before flapping their gums:

Quote from: grubmanUnrelated to any specific game...

I mean seriously...I understand trying to convince people that games you like are great!  But, why try to convince people that like, love, or are at least open minded that a game sucks...and they have no reason to like it (or are at least stupid or inferior for not thinking it sucks)?

We see it over and over on the internet.  What is there to be gained in this action?

I think I can summarize this as: what is to be gained by trying to convince someone who enjoys a game, that the game is not, in fact, enjoyable?

But really we've answered the question already.