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Author Topic: Different Species of Humans!  (Read 3315 times)

Osman Gazi

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Re: Different Species of Humans!
« Reply #30 on: August 30, 2022, 11:12:40 AM »
As this thread is full of wrong, allow me to venture my own knowledge and opinions.

Humans feature a very unique mutation which makes interbreeding with other great apes impossible. Specifically, chromosomes 2 and 3 are fused. This is a very complex, multi-step mutation. Chromosomes have telomeres at their ends (which tell the DNA duplicator to stop) and a centomere in the middle which allows the duplicator to proceed. For the chromosome fusion mutation to happen, you have to deactivate the centomere which was in the middle to make what is effectively a new telomere, and then activate the telomere which is now in the middle so it now serves as a centomere. So this mutation has three steps (a structural mutation and two point mutations) which must occur simultaneously or else you make one or both chromosomes useless.

Now here's the stretch; this mutation is effectively God's DRM key on humanity. It completely stops all possibility of natural interbreeding with an ape or chimp which doesn't have this mutation because the DNA is formatted differently. For this mutation to not instantly die off, you need a minimum of two people (a male and a female) to have the exact same mutations (same two chromosomes fused, same orientation, same telomere and centomere alterations) and for those two to live close enough in time and space to have children.

We can infer that all that actually happened purely from the fact we are alive and our DNA has this extremely strange mutation and this mutation could not exist otherwise.

My point is that it's meaningless to call any human subspecies which can interbreed with homo sapiens anything other than another homo sapiens. You have to be on this side of this mutation to interbreed.

You're forgetting that the fusion of these two chromosomes had already taken place.  Denisovans and Neanderthals have this same mutation.  See https://www.bbvaopenmind.com/en/science/bioscience/the-origin-of-the-human-species-a-chromosome-fusion/  I am not sure if it's been determined as of yet when this mutation took place, but (assuming you want a "crunchy" campaign with reasonable scientific plausibility), hybrid cross-breeding between hominids with this same mutation is reasonable.  I'd be interested to see if they're able to get enough Australopithecine DNA to see if they have this mutation or not--my guess is that they didn't have it, but I could be wrong.

Elfdart

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Re: Different Species of Humans!
« Reply #31 on: September 09, 2022, 03:28:01 PM »
As this thread is full of wrong, allow me to venture my own knowledge and opinions.

Humans feature a very unique mutation which makes interbreeding with other great apes impossible. Specifically, chromosomes 2 and 3 are fused. This is a very complex, multi-step mutation. Chromosomes have telomeres at their ends (which tell the DNA duplicator to stop) and a centomere in the middle which allows the duplicator to proceed. For the chromosome fusion mutation to happen, you have to deactivate the centomere which was in the middle to make what is effectively a new telomere, and then activate the telomere which is now in the middle so it now serves as a centomere. So this mutation has three steps (a structural mutation and two point mutations) which must occur simultaneously or else you make one or both chromosomes useless.

Now here's the stretch; this mutation is effectively God's DRM key on humanity. It completely stops all possibility of natural interbreeding with an ape or chimp which doesn't have this mutation because the DNA is formatted differently. For this mutation to not instantly die off, you need a minimum of two people (a male and a female) to have the exact same mutations (same two chromosomes fused, same orientation, same telomere and centomere alterations) and for those two to live close enough in time and space to have children.

We can infer that all that actually happened purely from the fact we are alive and our DNA has this extremely strange mutation and this mutation could not exist otherwise.

My point is that it's meaningless to call any human subspecies which can interbreed with homo sapiens anything other than another homo sapiens. You have to be on this side of this mutation to interbreed.

Greetings!

Sounds good, Fheredin!

You are aware that all of the Paleontologists, Archeologists, and Anthropologists at all of these dig sites and at the uber elite universities have all formed a *consensus* that historically, there have been different human species, and that somehow, they intermixed and interbred with each other?

*Shrugs* That I just what I have read in the academic literature, and seen in the documentaries where they interview "Professor X" and "Scholar Y". ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

They've been arguing for centuries whether the different hominids are separate species, like the difference between a lion (Pantera leo) and a leopard (Pantera pardus), or separate sub-species like the difference between an African leopard (Pantera pardus pardus) and an Arabian leopard (Pantera pardus nimr ).

The genus Homo is very much like the genus Canis because not only did different sub-species interbreed and produce fertile offspring, but different species did, too. Usually when different species interbreed, the result is sterile (like mules or ligers) but Denisovians (a hybrid of Neanderthals and our species) reproduced for many thousands of years. Both genera are taxonomical headaches.
Jesus Fucking Christ, is this guy honestly that goddamned stupid? He can't understand the plot of a Star Wars film? We're not talking about "Rashomon" here, for fuck's sake. The plot is as linear as they come. If anything, the film tries too hard to fill in all the gaps. This guy must be a flaming retard.  --Mike Wong on Red Letter Moron's review of The Phantom Menace

Wrath of God

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Re: Different Species of Humans!
« Reply #32 on: October 11, 2022, 08:45:17 PM »
Quote
but Denisovians (a hybrid of Neanderthals and our species) reproduced for many thousands of years. Both genera are taxonomical headaches.

I dig those old hominid bones to mention that denisovians were not hybrid of neanderthal and hss. Denisovians are sister race (or races) to Neanderthals both coming from common ancestor that left Africa way before H.s.s.

Most of boreal humans has either admixture of neanderthal or denisovian in other worlds - we all are hybrids of neanderthals and homo sapiens.

And both Neanderthals and Denisovians were very diversed as they lived for long thousands of years across whole Eurasia before Hss moved its twink butt from Africa.
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With great vengeance and furious anger"


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Osman Gazi

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Re: Different Species of Humans!
« Reply #33 on: October 12, 2022, 09:13:51 AM »
Quote
but Denisovians (a hybrid of Neanderthals and our species) reproduced for many thousands of years. Both genera are taxonomical headaches.

I dig those old hominid bones to mention that denisovians were not hybrid of neanderthal and hss. Denisovians are sister race (or races) to Neanderthals both coming from common ancestor that left Africa way before H.s.s.

Most of boreal humans has either admixture of neanderthal or denisovian in other worlds - we all are hybrids of neanderthals and homo sapiens.

And both Neanderthals and Denisovians were very diversed as they lived for long thousands of years across whole Eurasia before Hss moved its twink butt from Africa.

My understanding is that Neanderthals and Denisovians had pretty low genetic diversity--and this probably contributed to the their disappearance.  See https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.0809194105 and https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/neanderthal-ancestry-in-europeans-unchanged-for-last-45-000-years-65364

blackstone

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Re: Different Species of Humans!
« Reply #34 on: October 13, 2022, 09:44:22 AM »
The closest thing I've created is for the next campaign I'm doing in the Hyborian Age.
Each nation/kingdom has ability and weapon modifiers for those people. their are also certain classes that are available and some that aren't, depending on where you PC came from. when i get home from work, I'll post my stuff. alot of it was derived from http://hyboria.xoth.net/index.htm , so I can't take 100% credit.

TimothyWestwind

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Re: Different Species of Humans!
« Reply #35 on: October 14, 2022, 04:55:57 AM »
My setting is based on Southeast Asia in the last Ice Age and I learned that some people in the Philippines have the highest percentage of Denisovan DNA in the world:

https://sundaland-rpg-setting.blogspot.com/2021/08/real-history-ethnic-group-in.html

I haven't yet decided how they differ from Homo Sapiens. I don't want to just make them exaggerated Sapiens, e.g. they're like us but stronger/smarter/faster.

If we outcompeted them then obviously we had an advantage in some way.

I might just make a table of various interesting cultural traits and roll up variations as and when I need them.
Sword & Sorcery in Southeast Asia during the last Ice Age: https://sundaland-rpg-setting.blogspot.com/ Lots of tools and resources to build your own setting.

Osman Gazi

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Re: Different Species of Humans!
« Reply #36 on: October 14, 2022, 09:58:52 AM »
My setting is based on Southeast Asia in the last Ice Age and I learned that some people in the Philippines have the highest percentage of Denisovan DNA in the world:

https://sundaland-rpg-setting.blogspot.com/2021/08/real-history-ethnic-group-in.html

I haven't yet decided how they differ from Homo Sapiens. I don't want to just make them exaggerated Sapiens, e.g. they're like us but stronger/smarter/faster.

If we outcompeted them then obviously we had an advantage in some way.

I might just make a table of various interesting cultural traits and roll up variations as and when I need them.

I'm not sure if it was the same case with Denisovans as with Neanderthals, but part of the advantage that homo sapiens had over Neanderthals is that we tended to live in larger groups than the Neanderthals.  This allows for both (a) larger pool for genetic diversity; and (b) better chance of collaboration leading to further development of language, culture, and technology.  Perhaps it was the same case as Denisovans--that perhaps they had "superior" traits as individuals, but culturally they were hampered from robust development, as well as having smaller gene pools leading to multiple problems.

Slipshot762

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Re: Different Species of Humans!
« Reply #37 on: October 18, 2022, 12:52:00 AM »
ran a conan game with d6 fantasy, different human cultures essentially took the mechanical place of races; for example nemedians got a bonus to all thing horse or cavalry related while stygians got bonuses to arcane or religious related things.