Well, Champions is a really cool system.  Villains and Vigilantes is old school and fun.  FASRIP / Marvel Superheroes is light and genre appropriate.  GURPS Supers does the gritty nineties with pouches and guns pretty well as long as you stick to the lower end of things. The Margaret Weis Marvel Superheroes is probably the best at emulating the realities of the genre where you're stated by story share rather than simulation.

The reason superhero rpgs suck is player characters aren't heroic.  That's really the problem.  They've got D&D brain damage and leave a swath of bodies a mile wide wherever they go.  And you can't fix that with rules.  It's the same problem you often encounter with horror.  If even one player refuses to buy into the premise, it doesn't work.

Quote from: CRKrueger;934812The problem with Supers isn't the system, it's the Settings.  They make no sense, have zero continuity, and aren't even internally consistent unless you call 100% lack of consistency "consistent".  The narratives are stale, retcons of a retconned retcon where a quick Identity Metatag Swap is considered fresh writing.  In these settings, Galactus can be defeated by Howard the Duck, and even Superman or Thor can die...no not really, you silly goose. Comic books rely completely and totally on genre convention and story, they are the most ridiculously unbelievable literary form that exists outside the Modern Romance Novel.

This is no different than any other long running fiction. Soap operas have a revolving door of death for favorite characters. Notably, the new Battlestar Galactica had death for cheap drama's sake. Star Trek is notable for retcons and discontinuity. And there are a shitton of continuity reboots in movies nowadays.

I have always felt that the superhero genre is not particularly conducive to gaming.  Imagine a fantasy setting where everybody is a zero level human except the PCs and villains who are 20th level immortals who go around fighting each other endlessly with cool powers because their alignment dictates it.  I don't know, maybe I am not being fair, but I don't think its the rules, rather I think it is hard to generate an interesting game given the basic conceits of the genre.

Quote from: Madprofessor;934854I have always felt that the superhero genre is not particularly conducive to gaming.  Imagine a fantasy setting where everybody is a zero level human except the PCs and villains who are 20th level immortals who go around fighting each other endlessly with cool powers because their alignment dictates it.  I don't know, maybe I am not being fair, but I don't think its the rules, rather I think it is hard to generate an interesting game given the basic conceits of the genre.

This is where, for me, the setting of any given supers game makes or breaks it even more than its system. I love the M&M system for its ability to conjurer up almost any character concept, but the generic Freedom setting of its books just leaves me flat. That's why probably my favorite supers game is Necessary Evil since it combines a fantastic setting where the players have good reason to be using their powers with a relatively straightforward system that doesn't make new players' heads explode when they try to build a character.

Two answers off the top of my head..

1) Because the genre sucks.
2) Because players suck (kewl powers does not a hero make, let alone a hero of the super variety).

Quote from: Lunamancer;934860Because ... (kewl powers does not a hero make, let alone a hero of the super variety).

This, mostly this.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;934805So, help me out here. Are there any Supers RPGs that don't suck?

In which way?  Rules? Setting? Gameplay? Players?

Quote from: David Johansen;934842....players... aren't heroic.  That's really the problem.  They've got D&D brain damage and leave a swath of bodies a mile wide wherever they go.  And you can't fix that with rules.  It's the same problem you often encounter with horror.  If even one player refuses to buy into the premise, it doesn't work.

This is the significant reason, imo, anyways.

There is oodles of things you can do with a supers game.

I converted Marvel Superheroes to AD&D 1e back in the early 90s. I think my baseline was Captain America, who I treated as a 17th level Fighter. I'm sure people would pick holes in it, but we had fun and to this day still use it, in the same campaign. I've had fun hybridizing Mutants and Masterminds 2e with True20. Mutants and Masterminds 3e is a solid tactical combat game, so long as you don't encounter anything more than Power Levels above you, my PL 10 Paragon defeating a PL 14 villian by dragging him into a pool of water and waiting for a while notwithstanding. Marvel Heroic Roleplaying (Cortex Plus) is the closest thing I have found to superheroes being superheroes and handles level disparity as well if not better than Marvel Superheroes.

That's all just mechanics. Pick something you like and hack it into what you want. I'm sure I could run Supers in Amber Diceless or Doctor Who Adventures in Time and Space if I wanted. I don't think I've even been in a supers game where players complained about the system.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;934805So, help me out here. Are there any Supers RPGs that don't suck?

Disclaimer: I generally don't care one bit for the supers genre as a genre:).
If I have people with powers, then I have people with powers, regardless of the setting. Expect something like Exalted crossed with Sin City and WoD to form itself soon after powers appear...but don't forget that even in Sin City, there's groups that aren't completely amoral, and would take issue with the PCs being such. (Also: that's why I like the AMP:Y1,2,3 games, though I'm still to play it...well, actually that's not the only reason, I also like the mechanics. But you don't have to like the same mechanics I do).

The long, but necessary disclaimer was meant to explain why I'm not sure I even understand what "supers" means to you. Thus, I need to ask.

What would be "a Supers game that doesn't suck" for you?

More specifically, what does it need to have in terms of genre support, system and setting (and do you even want genre support and/or assumed setting)?

As an example of what I mean, by reading the thread, I got it that you want "intuitive mechanics". What is "intuitive" for you;)?

Is it intuitive that if you strike someone in the jaw faster than the sound, you'll either destroy your own hand, or you'd need bones and sinews harder than steel and more elastic than rubber bands to go with it? And that if you have those, that strike is going to be murderous when aimed at soft parts?

Or do you want the system to support Speedsters being Speedsters and not Bricks;)?

Answer me this (bulletpoints preferred) and I'd probably be able to recommend you something;).
Knowing a whole lot of systems that can be used for supers is kinda the curse of the Exalted fan who joined the game pre-3e, or was unhappy with the current edition of Exalted:D!

Quote from: CRKrueger;934812Comic books rely completely and totally on genre convention and story, they are the most ridiculously unbelievable literary form that exists outside the Modern Romance Novel.

Yeah, most superhero comics suck the sweat from a Tijuana whore's ass-crack. Literally everything is decided by the needs of the story, so everything is fungible, which is a quality of the genre which makes for poor gaming unless you go something like the MHR route.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;934874Yeah, most superhero comics suck the sweat from a Tijuana whore's ass-crack. Literally everything is decided by the needs of the story, so everything is fungible, which is a quality of the genre which makes for poor gaming unless you go something like the MHR route.

Well, you could go for a narrative system that functions by the qualities of the plot, but I get a feeling TrippyHippy doesn't want that recommendation;)!

Quote from: AsenRG;934875Well, you could go for a narrative system that functions by the qualities of the plot, but I get a feeling TrippyHippy doesn't want that recommendation;)!

Yes, which is why I wrote ". . . unless you go something like the MHR route."

Quote from: Black Vulmea;934876Yes, which is why I wrote ". . . unless you go something like the MHR route."

Oh wait, you meant the Cortex+ thing:)? In that case, I agree, with the caveat that games that are not trying to emulate the genre wouldn't need the MHR treatment.
I keep mistaking MHR for the earlier FASERIP edition, purely because the letters are close enough:D!

Quote from: Black Vulmea;934874Yeah, most superhero comics suck the sweat from a Tijuana whore's ass-crack. Literally everything is decided by the needs of the story, so everything is fungible, which is a quality of the genre which makes for poor gaming unless you go something like the MHR route.

Bitching that the story is decided by the story?

Full on dumb.

Quote from: AsenRG;934880I keep mistaking MHR for the earlier FASERIP edition, purely because the letters are close enough:D!

MSH = FASERIP, MHR = Cortex-whatever.