Would a game based on OD&D using Chainmail combat rules (d6 dice pools and/or 2d6) be OSR?

On the one hand, a game's considered OSR if it is based on and compatible with an old edition of D&D, and by definition a game based on OD&D is based on D&D.

On the other hand, Chainmail is so radically different from the alternative combat system that became the standard in later OSR editions that such a game would not be compatible with any other edition or normal OSR games.

Perhaps to stay OSR the game would have to do what OD&D itself did and support both combat systems?

I think that "Spellcraft & Swordplay" by Elf Lair Games uses Chainmail combat as its main system.

ttps://www.drivethrurpg.com/product_info.php?products_id=94105

I tried some OD&D campaigns using Chainmail instead of the "alternate" (standard d20) systm with mixed results. Technically there are three different systems in Chainmail -- one for army combat, one for regular man-to-man combat, one for combat with supernatural creatures -- and the three aren't really designed to fit together well. This means you have to make some design decisions and pick specific systems for specific situations, so it's hard to have a fully "Chainmail based combat" RPG.

Quote from: finarvyn on August 01, 2022, 09:20:27 PM
I think that "Spellcraft & Swordplay" by Elf Lair Games uses Chainmail combat as its main system.

ttps://www.drivethrurpg.com/product_info.php?products_id=94105

Nice, I'll check it out.

Quote
I tried some OD&D campaigns using Chainmail instead of the "alternate" (standard d20) systm with mixed results. Technically there are three different systems in Chainmail -- one for army combat, one for regular man-to-man combat, one for combat with supernatural creatures -- and the three aren't really designed to fit together well. This means you have to make some design decisions and pick specific systems for specific situations, so it's hard to have a fully "Chainmail based combat" RPG.

Yeah, you definitely have to make some judicious decisions on how to use it. One of things I'd hope a Chainmail-based system would do is to clean that up.

What interests me about playing using Chainmail mechanics other than sheer curiosity and atavism is the way it moves some of the fundamental combat abstractions around: Instead of heavier weapons doing more damage, they deal damage more often (= lower to hit target). Instead of getting better at hitting your opponents as you level, you mainly get more attacks per round. Weapon class (similar to weapon speed in AD&D) matters more than who won initiative in determining who attacks first in melee.

It just seems like it would be a really interesting way to play once you really internalize the logic.

Yes, Spellcraft & Swordplay partly does this: the basic version is free on DriveThru (goes through level 3). He's also got a free supplement discussing using Chainmail for combat, Forbidden Lore. S&S only uses the "man-to-man" system from Chainmail, not the "troop type" or "fantasy supplement" systems. Monsters are given HD and weapon attack equivalents (e.g., a wyvern has 7 HD and attacks with 4 claws & a bite (classed as longsword & battle-axe) or tail swipe (flail plus special poison attack).

The other thing I appreciate about S&S is non-Vancian/quasi-Vancian spellcasting: roll to cast, as per Chainmail.

Elf Lair Games also has some nice free supplements for Hyborian Age OD&D, for which I've used S&S as the base rules, not OD&D.

Quote from: rhialto on August 02, 2022, 06:43:53 AMThe other thing I appreciate about S&S is non-Vancian/quasi-Vancian spellcasting: roll to cast, as per Chainmail.

Yeah, this part of Chainmail I find particularly appealing. 

Quote from: finarvyn on August 02, 2022, 07:19:47 AM

Quote from: rhialto on August 02, 2022, 06:43:53 AMThe other thing I appreciate about S&S is non-Vancian/quasi-Vancian spellcasting: roll to cast, as per Chainmail.

Yeah, this part of Chainmail I find particularly appealing. 

Likewise; it's a shame these rules (Spellcraft & Swordplay) don't get more OSR recognition.

Quote from: Cat the Bounty Smuggler on August 01, 2022, 02:38:18 PM
Would a game based on OD&D using Chainmail combat rules (d6 dice pools and/or 2d6) be OSR?

On the one hand, a game's considered OSR if it is based on and compatible with an old edition of D&D, and by definition a game based on OD&D is based on D&D.

On the other hand, Chainmail is so radically different from the alternative combat system that became the standard in later OSR editions that such a game would not be compatible with any other edition or normal OSR games.

Perhaps to stay OSR the game would have to do what OD&D itself did and support both combat systems?

So I'm running a "BrOSR style" 1:1 time campaign as we speak and one of the things patron players can do is fight battles using Chainmail. We had an interesting situation at the very start of the campaign where a group of adventurers started raiding a tomb moments before two rival wizards coincidentally started a battle for ownership of the Tomb. At one point a group of ten men (equivalent to 1 unit or mini in Chainmail) had to branch off and go into the tomb looking for the adventurers. Each Fighting Man was about a tenth as good as 1 Fighter PC. I used B/X OSE with Ascending AC for the DnD. And everything scaled up and down pretty nicely. If the Adventurers wanted to be represented in Chainmail I'd represent them as 1 whole unit as opposed to ten men.

What I'm trying to say is it's not that hard to take Chainmail and adapt it to DnD quite seamlessly. I don't know how it'd work for any other edition but B/X but I know the Trollopolus people did it just as well with 1E AD&D. Just scale up and down as needed.

Quote from: Cat the Bounty Smuggler on August 01, 2022, 09:35:13 PM
Would a game based on OD&D using Chainmail combat rules (d6 dice pools and/or 2d6) be OSR?

[...]

What interests me about playing using Chainmail mechanics other than sheer curiosity and atavism is the way it moves some of the fundamental combat abstractions around: Instead of heavier weapons doing more damage, they deal damage more often (= lower to hit target). Instead of getting better at hitting your opponents as you level, you mainly get more attacks per round. Weapon class (similar to weapon speed in AD&D) matters more than who won initiative in determining who attacks first in melee.

It just seems like it would be a really interesting way to play once you really internalize the logic.

My immediate question was, what exactly do you consider "chainmail-style" but this answers it.

So my answer is, play 1E, keep a lid on power creep, and pay attention to the fine print. And understand the brilliance of 1E's hit tables.

Beginning with the latter, the hit tables for 0th level characters are such that your chance in 20 of hitting is equal to the defender's AC. If your enemies have chainmail, AC 5, each score of fighting men will score 5 hits on average. For large battles, I just say 5 hits. You can then proceed to roll 5 dice of damage (dice pool).

Apply weapons vs armor adjustments. This may be a pain in the ass when it's a motley band of ragtag adventurers fighting a similarly-composed NPC fighter. But when it's scores of homogeneous units, there are very few lookups. This is where you will see heavier weapons getting in more hits. A score of 0th level fighting men against platemail (AC 3) will get 3 hits with an average (no adjustment) weapon. Ones armed with a footman's flail will score 5 hits. Ones armed with a broadsword will score just 1 hit (heavy weapon = more hits).

For highly skilled fighters--fighters with levels--you get one attack per level against 0th level characters. So a hero (4th level fighter) gets 4 attacks per round (higher level = more attacks).

There is a mass of pikes rule that when there is a formation of many long-reach weapons, weapon length determines first strike, weapon speed determines second strike (with two, and in rare cases even 3 counterattacks being allowed), and the slower weapon having the final attack for the initial round of combat. (thus weapon class mattering more than initiative).

These are some of my favorite features about 1E and they're largely overlooked. But they hit all your bullet points.

Mind you, 1E of course also has the more typical RPG stuff, and I think it manages it without the two styles stepping on each other's toes. The idea is you can shift from gritty, realistic, or wargame style to a mythic heroes or high fantasy style of adventure fairly seamlessly.

Quote from: Lunamancer on August 02, 2022, 01:13:59 PM
So my answer is, play 1E, keep a lid on power creep, and pay attention to the fine print. And understand the brilliance of 1E's hit tables.

Thank you for your response! This is some really fascinating stuff that I hadn't noticed or considered. And your approach to AD&D mass combat seems like it would be quite workable, without being overly complicated.

If I may ask, how do you distribute the damage rolled among the individual characters and monsters?

Quote from: King Tyranno on August 02, 2022, 08:47:05 AM
What I'm trying to say is it's not that hard to take Chainmail and adapt it to DnD quite seamlessly. I don't know how it'd work for any other edition but B/X but I know the Trollopolus people did it just as well with 1E AD&D. Just scale up and down as needed.

I know some of the BrOSR do things that way, although ironically Jeffro seems to use a homebrew mass combat system that applies the regular combat rules directly to 1:10 or 1:20 scale figures.

I meant to include this in my reply to Lunamancer as well, but I'm mainly interested in Chainmail as a replacement for the "alternative" combat system, for use in small-scale battles. Apparently several people have done that with good results, as attested by the existence of Forbidden Lore and Compleat Chainmail, even doing the opposite of what Jeffro does and using the mass combat system at 1:1 scale.

Quote from: Cat the Bounty Smuggler on August 02, 2022, 02:58:28 PM
...

I know some of the BrOSR do things that way, although ironically Jeffro seems to use a homebrew mass combat system that applies the regular combat rules directly to 1:10 or 1:20 scale figures.
..

My understanding is that it is not a homebrew at all. It's part of 1e AD&D.

He scales it straight to 1:10 or 1:20 from the MM. All monsters have the same HD. So a HD = 1 hit when scaled up. Their movement is given in inches. Even spell effects are given in inches. So you can seamlessly transition to a table top wargame format.

So a band of 50 orcs scaled to 1:10 becomes one unit of 50hp or 5 units of 10hp each, depending on how you want to play out the skirmish. Where you then just run combat as normal with the 'units' standing in for individual monsters/PC's.

I believe that he did say that there were no real rules to deal with 'unit facing' (So the GM would have to make a call), but that's about it.

Quote from: Cat the Bounty Smuggler on August 02, 2022, 02:51:34 PM
Thank you for your response! This is some really fascinating stuff that I hadn't noticed or considered. And your approach to AD&D mass combat seems like it would be quite workable, without being overly complicated.

If I may ask, how do you distribute the damage rolled among the individual characters and monsters?

There's a little known line in the DMG that says in mass combat, targets are selected randomly. Some people who get hopped up on obscure rules have mistakenly taken this to be how all melee works in 1E. But it is specifically for "mass melee." That term is not defined. But if I'm using a 20:1 scale, it's not really possible to track exactly who's hitting who. And so to me that makes it obvious when it's supposed to apply. A mass melee could be defined as any melee where you cannot track precise targets.

What I'll typically do, since I'm typically giving all 20 fighting men the same number of hit points as well, is I'm just looking if the damage rolls are equal to or greater than the hit points. Those rolls indicate deaths. Otherwise, it indicates casualties. Depending on morale, just being wounded might take those men out of the fight. But if they keep on fighting, I just treat wounded as having half hit points so I don't need to track exact totals--any hit on a wounded fighting man is a kill.