Quote from: jhkim(And I'm going to get to a critique of the stuff on the wiki soon, really.  Would you prefer talking here or on your thread at Gamecraft?)

Whichever you prefer. This forum is incisive, and calls you on your bullshit which is good, but is has some clutter to go with that, which is bad; gamecraft is thoughtful and on-topic, which is good, but more staid and less critical, which is bad. So each has their good and bad points, and has different posters with different ideas, that's why I posted on both.

Or of course by email, that's another possibility.

At this stage, I'm mostly interested in hearing if the descriptions I've given there match people's experiences. People who game, anyway.

Quote from: jhkimYes, a given critic / theorist is going to biased towards the works that he likes.  But that doesn't mean that the critical thought and theory are going to be useless to everyone else. . .

True enough, though I hold that theory based on something as subjective as personal likes and dislikes isn't so much theory as it is heavily obfuscated pedagogy. This doesn't mean that it's worthless to everybody, but it does mean that its utility is limited only to those people who share the same tastes as the theory originator/s.

Take kickers, for example -- I like the idea, but not because it works. I like it because it works for me. And that's a huge difference. Most casual gamers that I know could give two shits about kickers. The point is that theory or parts of a theory based on "What I like" isn't universally applicable, nor is it concerned with explaining repetative phenoma so much as it is concerned with propogating a certain school of thought.

A theory (or parts of a theory) based almost entirely on "What I Like" only works if the reader likes that same thing, too. Entirely too many people kid themselves when they say "MY theory is universally applicable" or "MY theory is the only one with merit". Because no theory rooted in personal preferences can ever be either of those things.

If a unified game theory ever happens (which it may not), it won't be as a result of the current trends in theory postulation.

Quote from: jhkimThis isn't terribly different from most arts.  For example, a given line of film theory will generally favor some films over other films.  Similarly with most theory about painting.  

Yes, a given critic / theorist is going to biased towards the works that he likes.  But that doesn't mean that the critical thought and theory are going to be useless to everyone else -- it just means that it has to be taken with a grain of salt, and looked at simultaneously with other theories.

Absolutely true.

I think there's been an absence of critical thought though -- and that's largely because many of the *theorists* are more interested in advocacy than analysis.

Also: I can't claim I used Auteur Theory to "design" my film. Art theory (to my limited understanding) is almost exclusively used for criticism.

GNS/TBM theory is (supposed to be) used for

* Diagnosing payers and play (i.e. why dysfunction occurs and what to do about it)
* Designing games
* Predicting phenomena that will occur during play (e.g. ongoing power struggle)

These are characteristics of scientific theories. I don't think most GNS/TBM-and related theories work that way, even though some of the theorists claim they do.

Cheers,
-E.

Quote from: -E.I think there's been an absence of critical thought though -- and that's largely because many of the *theorists* are more interested in advocacy than analysis.

Well said. That's what I was trying to get at when I spoke of pedagogy. I see a lack of analysis, which is where theory should start. Most of what I've seen starts with personal tatses and then claims analysis after the fact. It's a fundamental flaw in most game theory, so far as I'm concerned.

I would just like to say that, if Cheeetoism has contributed anything at all to the world, it's that when you do a google search for "Cheetoism", you come up with the stupidest, silliest threads debating with utter confusion.

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