Quote from: J Arcane;752572I literally cannot think of a single game in the history of this medium that failed to include character generation and did not subsequently fail itself.

FFG Star Wars is doing pretty well for itself, so I'm told.

Quote from: Ravenswing;752559While I've been on that side of the line since damn near Day One, the unfortunate fact is that there remains two factions: those for whom chargen is essential, and those for whom it's an unwelcome chore and Not Really Part Of The Game.

Including character generation does address both sides, though. Mike Mearls is not going to come to your house and force you to make D&D characters - and even if he does, call the cops on him! Make a citizens arrest! Home invasion isn't legal, whether you're a meth head or designer on the latest edition of a long-running fantasy roleplaying game.

If for some ideological reason you don't want people to be able to create their own characters, well, that's just being a jerk.

Quote from: Mistwell;752574Apparently you are unaware that no starter box since 1983 has included chargen in it, OR if it did, it did it in a way that made the game not compatible with the full game.

So what? That's irrelevant. This boxed set isn't competing against those. It's competing against the Pathfinder box, or AFF2e, or Skyrim, or anything else that is complete in one thing and lets players create their own characters.

And if they intend to print up copies of this character gen document to hand out at game stores as a marketing tool, it costs very little more to put it in the box. That way, everyone who buys that box has that document, in hardcopy (ie, without needing to go to a website). The store can't run out. The manager can't accidentally only order the starter box and not the character stuff.

Also, you're wrong.

Quote from: J Arcane;752579The boxed sets were failures. They were bargain binned almost from day one.

It just doesn't matter because the actual game they are for still sold fine. They're the $20 toaster at the endcap of the Wal-Mart aisle that you won't buy because the better toaster down the aisle inside has a bagel setting and is only $10 more.

The corebook sold better. Maybe even better for the useless box having been there.

Because it had character creation.  

It had the bagel setting.

Wait, "the boxed set sells well" is your standard for success?

OK, 4e boxed set. It sold great. It was not a good product, however, unless you liked the chits.

Quote from: Ravenswing;752559While I've been on that side of the line since damn near Day One, the unfortunate fact is that there remains two factions: those for whom chargen is essential, and those for whom it's an unwelcome chore and Not Really Part Of The Game.

I've come across some incredible straw-men in my time, but that might take the cake.

There are two factions:

1) Those who don't understand what a Starter Set is and who bleat relentlessly about anything at all different from the Moldvay Basic Set (which wasn't a starter set, but the first module in a standalone game).

2) Those who recognize that for total newbs (who are the target market of the Starter Set), character generation is not essential, and may in fact be an unwelcome complication or barrier to entry.

Quote from: Ladybird;752585So what? That's irrelevant. This boxed set isn't competing against those. It's competing against the Pathfinder box, or AFF2e, or Skyrim, or anything else that is complete in one thing and lets players create their own characters.

It's relevant to the post I was replying to, and the context I was replying to, which has fuckall to do with anything you just wrote.

He confused two D&D terms for starter (which is an intro game for totally new players) vs. basic boxed set (which is a subset of a larger game, either it's own game or a more advanced game).  I was explaining starter set, in the context of D&D products, hadn't meant what he thought it had meant, for over 30 years.  He even showed a picture to make it clear the context we were discussing.

You seem concerned with competition outside of the context of D&D - but that's not the topic I was replying to.  So yeah, imagine that, my post is irrelevant for shit I was not talking about.  It's also irrelevant for a variety of cheese and tea discussions.  Thanks for your input!

Quote from: Omega;752535True.

But the thing in Next's starters case is. It is not a "basic" set. And in a way "starter" is a bit misleading. Not sure what youd call it...
...The problem is that the Next starter looks like a B/X/etc Basic boxed set. But is not.

Yeah, I think that's the source of the complaints.

On current info it definitely sounds a lot like a preview, quickstart etc - indeed much like the free 4e pdf Quickstart, which went to level 3 and had several free adventures to use with it, including pdf Keep on the Shadowfell.
It sounds unlike the $20 4e Red Box in that it seems to have more levels, but less 'stuff'.

I'm having a hard time getting pissed off over the fact that Wizards is giving me the core of 5th edition for free.

I'm having even a harder time getting pissed off that they are giving everyone else the same thing.

Quote from: Mistwell;752574Apparently you are unaware that no starter box since 1983 has included chargen in it, OR if it did, it did it in a way that made the game not compatible with the full game.  

I thought the starter set(s) compatible with TSR's D&D Rules Cyclopedia still had chargen, didn't they? Or is this why nothing between 1983 Mentzer Basic and 2010 Pathfinder Beginner Box had much impact?

Quote from: Haffrung;752587I've come across some incredible straw-men in my time, but that might take the cake.

There are two factions:

1) Those who don't understand what a Starter Set is and who bleat relentlessly about anything at all different from the Moldvay Basic Set (which wasn't a starter set, but the first module in a standalone game).

2) Those who recognize that for total newbs (who are the target market of the Starter Set), character generation is not essential, and may in fact be an unwelcome complication or barrier to entry.

Sheesh.  About 25% of the time you say something sensible, and a full half the time you sound like someone who needs his dosage adjusted.  Among other things, coming up with crap like that is far more of a strawman than I ever contemplated.

There are, indeed, those who believe that chargen is important enough to playing the game that total newbs ought to be introduced to it, that failing to do so out of the gate will bite them in the butt down the road, and that it's no more a "barrier to entry" than having to learn how a knight moves in chess is only optional if you want to learn how to play chess.

Some might not agree with that, but that doesn't make them self-evident idiots.

Quote from: S'mon;752593I thought the starter set(s) compatible with TSR's D&D Rules Cyclopedia still had chargen, didn't they? Or is this why nothing between 1983 Mentzer Basic and 2010 Pathfinder Beginner Box had much impact?

The 1994 box did. I had it.

Quote from: Haffrung;7525872) Those who recognize that for total newbs (who are the target market of the Starter Set), character generation is not essential, and may in fact be an unwelcome complication or barrier to entry.

I still think that's quite an assumption... and doesn't match up with my own experiences at all. I think removing the bits needed to make and play your own character is removing a vital part of what makes RPGs unique.
The whole 'starter' vs. 'basic' vs. 'beginner' nomemclature pit fight is nonsense... because it means jack shit in the real world and those same imaginary 'newbs' are going to supply their own expectations.
Having the missing bits only available online, in whatever manner, is not better except for WOTC.
It's also aesthetically unpleasant to have a box with nice books and then have to go add a bunch of loose printer pages.

Quote from: Simlasa;752604The whole 'starter' vs. 'basic' vs. 'beginner' nomemclature pit fight is nonsense... because it means jack shit in the real world and those same imaginary 'newbs' are going to supply their own expectations.

Are you crazy? Everyone should have their expectations set by what Mike Mearls may or may not have said, all easily available a few dozen mouse clicks away. Shame on you for suggesting otherwise, and please try to stay "on topic".

Quote from: Windjammer;752527There is more, but this rests my case. A starter box for an RPG without character generation cuts out the above...

You are not killing the joy of playing a character. You are simply bypassing the long boring process of creating it. You still get to be a character in a game. Don't confuse making a character with playing a character.

Quote from: Windjammer;752527... Shame on them for promoting the idea that creating a character needs a $50 hardcover or a 48 (!) page PDF.

So you then stand up with your Braveheart speech based on the silly misconstrued argument from above? You don't need a $50 hardcover. Saying it over and over again doesn't change that. Trying to say it with $10 words instead of spitting on the screen (I tried both btw...) doesn't change it either. D&D is focused on playing. Play first. Then make characters. It's fucking brilliant and no shame is needed.

Quote from: Windjammer;752527The fact that Pundit can't see it in those terms cements, if anything, his own blind spot...

No. He is not mistaking anything. He clearly sees a good strategy to bring D&D into the main stream and successfully recruit GMs and Players.

I'm not interested in entering into a debate with you on the merits of character creation. I applaud your attempt at "but character creation is so vital and now it's missing so what about that?" You couldn't possibly argue the original point so you steer us on the finer points of character creation and how might the game suffer if it's not as "eloquent" as Benoist's post. Who gives two fucks? You can make characters by downloading a free PDF. That completely, totally and finally eliminates the wall of bullshit you just spit out. Is it going to be "GOOD" character creation? OH for fucks sake can we argue that later after you download the free PDF and parse it for your next academic post?

The starter set is not supposed to have character creation in it, because it's focused on playing. Simple. The argument is this; 1) is the Starter Box a complete game without character creation? Yes. You can pull stuff out and start playing. 2) is the Starter Box now crippleware because it's missing character creation. No. You can download that for free. A download that will EXACTLY MATCH THE HARDCOVER.

Either way you try to slice it, the Starter Set is a complete game designed to recruit new GMs to create new groups to play D&D. All this hand wringing about $150 in books, and missing character creation, etc. is simply whining because the box set doesn't conform with the dreams and hopes of the grogtard crowd. Also, see -> cheap ass.

TL: DR – including more words to repeat the lame mantra's of the grogtards makes you look lamer. The box set is a complete game, the strategy is sound, and you are a whiny bitch (a well spoken whiny bitch, but at last...).

What? You thought I was going to just let this whole new thread of nonsense slide?

Quote from: trechriron;752607You are not killing the joy of playing a character. You are simply bypassing the long boring process of creating it. You still get to be a character in a game.

Why should creating a character EVER be a 'long boring process'? That's the sort of shit that sent me back to playing lighter rules sets.

Quote from: trechriron;752607The starter set is not supposed to have character creation in it, because it’s focused on playing.

'Supposed' is only a viable word from WOTC's perspective... and besides, why shouldn't character creation be part of play rather than set off as some painful adjunct? I wasn't aware that roleplayers hated chargen this much... that it's considered such a burden on their fun. I've never been anything close to an optimizer but I've always found chargen (in the games I like at least) an exciting part of the game as a whole.

The problem with 'why not just include it' is that's a bad way to design a document for beginners. I know - I make a living writing technical and training documentation. A lot of the documents I write are for new users. In the industry, they're called "Quick Starts" or "Getting Started" docs. The cardinal rule of a quick start is to include only content that is absolutely essential. It's not the place for options, extras, or even standard workflows that are not absolutely essential to getting started using the product. For all other instruction and workflows, a Quick Start references the main user documentation. In the case of 5E, that's the online character generation PDF and the PHB.