Quote from: Shipyard Locked;909150How does it compare to late D&D (3e - 5e) combat in terms of time sunk?

I have no clue. Sorry.

Quote from: Kiero;909164Ships are very easy to "partially threaten" - damage them. Your options are not merely "destroy or leave totally unscathed". Not least because damage often has immediate consequence for the ship's performance and longer-term ones for how the PCs respond. If the PC's ship lost it's ram in that last boarding action, they have a very immediate problem of needing to survive (ie not sink!) long enough to effect some kind of repairs. Then it's a choice - do they repair the ship properly, taking long time and needing the right raw materials and possibly specialists, or patch something up themselves so they can carry on with their journey? Are they going to miss a planned meeting as a result of that? Will they have to be careful if they encounter hostile vessels until they get a new ram? Should they consider abandoning the ship when they next get to shore?

Agree 100%.  A ship, as a home base, and a means of survival and transportation is an important resource to be managed adding a new dimension and challenge to the game. Wooden ships are pretty resilient.  A lot can go wrong without it completely sinking and being destroyed.  A ship that goes through lots of hardship can become a "character" in its own way and a part of the story.  Besides, if a GM is impartial to character death, why on earth we he be afraid to challenge and possibly destroy the characters' primary assets? It's not like ships are irreplaceable.

Perhaps this video will shed some light on the subject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTwq1_9VH68

Quote from: Madprofessor;909086hmm... I am actually surprised that people find nautical adventures limiting or difficult. I don't really get it. Ships and the sea regularly feature in my campaigns.  The sea seams such a natural place for adventure: Sindbad, vikings, the Odyssey, pirates, Atlantis, exotic ports, strange new lands, mysterious islands... in the unknown lands beyond the PC homeland anything is possible: strange temples, cults and religions, foreign cultures, exotic technology, steaming jungles And frozen wastes in the same game, riches and danger await. Ships are also a contained environment, a very manageable sandbox great for intrigue and NPC interaction. Ships a are a great way to introduce characters from disparate lands and cultures helping to explain why a party of adventurers are together and need to cooperate - providing a vary believable PC halo.  The Sea itself as a hostile environment of constant peril presents challenges that require thought, caution and cooperation sometimes even with enemies.  Storms, sea monsters (there is no better environment for monsters), enemy ships and pirates are great tools for the GM to force a story to a specific location without seeming too railroady, because all of these dangers are completely plausible.  My veteran players leave a little space to take swimming, navigation, survival, and sailing as a skills for good reason. In fact, it's become running joke between the veterans in my group with new players at my table, whether their combat maxed characters sink or swim.

Ditto.

Boats and ships have played a prominent role in just about every campaign I've ever run or played in. Crew size really shouldn't be much of an issue. A seaworthy Viking-era cargo ship like Skuldelev-1 could be crewed with as few as six men. Some of the mid-sized dhows (like Sinbad's boat in the movies) and cogs could get by with around a dozen men, and caravels like the Niña and Pinta could be crewed with around 20-25 men. So it's not like players would have to keep up with a ship of the line.

Quote from: Kiero;909164Ships are very easy to "partially threaten" - damage them. Your options are not merely "destroy or leave totally unscathed". Not least because damage often has immediate consequence for the ship's performance and longer-term ones for how the PCs respond. If the PC's ship lost it's ram in that last boarding action, they have a very immediate problem of needing to survive (ie not sink!) long enough to effect some kind of repairs. Then it's a choice - do they repair the ship properly, taking long time and needing the right raw materials and possibly specialists, or patch something up themselves so they can carry on with their journey? Are they going to miss a planned meeting as a result of that? Will they have to be careful if they encounter hostile vessels until they get a new ram? Should they consider abandoning the ship when they next get to shore?

Though I have to say a game where the ship is totally inviolable sounds boring in the extreme. It's not as though it's hard for enterprising PCs (especially those willing to fight) to get another one.

Actually, the problem with some 'partial' damage to a boat can be catastrophic.  Break the rudder and you're not likely to ever hit land, or get sucked into a storm, or worse, because you're at the mercy of the currents.  Break a mast, and you could literally be dead in the water, especially if it's got no oars.  Crack the keel, and the ship is done, time to swim, cuz it will sink.

A ship is much more fragile than we are often led to believe.  But it's also a pretty sturdy vehicle at the same time.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;909216Actually, the problem with some 'partial' damage to a boat can be catastrophic.  Break the rudder and you're not likely to ever hit land, or get sucked into a storm, or worse, because you're at the mercy of the currents.  Break a mast, and you could literally be dead in the water, especially if it's got no oars.  Crack the keel, and the ship is done, time to swim, cuz it will sink.

Ships of any size included many carpenters and spare materials to fix such things.  Rudders and steering oars are simple mechanisms and you can do a lot to steer with the sails themselves, even sail against the wind if you have a lateen sail.  Most ships carried some kind of back up plan, spare sail material (which by the way, in the early middle ages, was practically the most expensive part of the ship), spare masts or materials to build them, oars or something.  The sea is a harsh mistress.  Sailors know this, and they prepare for it.

You're right, a broken keel would be bad, but unless you were rammed (or it was eaten by a kracken) it was unlikely to break.  It was the strongest part of the ship, and wooden ships (many of them) were designed to give somewhat.  Even with a broken keel, a wooden ship could take a long time to sink (in fact it could capsize and drift to shore floating for weeks - it is wood).  And if it's a naval battle there are other ships to swim to.  

Of course, ships did sink, and storms could and did tear them apart and send them to the bottom with all hands.  That danger is part of what makes it fun for gaming.  It would take a sucky GM to randomly throw a squall and sink the PC's ship and have them all drown.  In a nautical campaign, players will likely pull out the stops to keep their ship afloat (crew, skills, gear, spares, etc). But even if their ship goes down, there is debris to catch, other ships to board, or they could wash up on an unknown shore.  It doesn't necessarily mean their death.  The way I see it, a sunken ship should lead to new adventures.

Quote from: Madprofessor;909227Rudders and steering oars are simple mechanisms and you can do a lot to steer with the sails themselves, even sail against the wind if you have a lateen sail.

Even my limited carpentry ability is sufficient to rig a crude steering oar.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;909216Actually, the problem with some 'partial' damage to a boat can be catastrophic.  Break the rudder and you're not likely to ever hit land, or get sucked into a storm, or worse, because you're at the mercy of the currents.  Break a mast, and you could literally be dead in the water, especially if it's got no oars.  Crack the keel, and the ship is done, time to swim, cuz it will sink.

A ship is much more fragile than we are often led to believe.  But it's also a pretty sturdy vehicle at the same time.

Sorry, that's bollocks. Any ship with a moderately competent crew has lots of means of jury-rigging temporary ways to get about and otherwise weather damage until proper repairs can be effected.

Most sailing vessels carry spare rudders and spars, so breaking a rudder or mast isn't fatal. And it's eminently possible to improvise. Plus they usually have boats which can be used to tow the ship. You think people never survived storms or accidental collisions?

Quote from: Kiero;909252Sorry, that's bollocks. Any ship with a moderately competent crew has lots of means of jury-rigging temporary ways to get about and otherwise weather damage until proper repairs can be effected.

Most sailing vessels carry spare rudders and spars, so breaking a rudder or mast isn't fatal. And it's eminently possible to improvise. Plus they usually have boats which can be used to tow the ship. You think people never survived storms or accidental collisions?

And how many players know all that?  Sadly, very few.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;909256And how many players know all that?  Sadly, very few.

It's the GMs job to know that, and it's another reason why having a crew is an asset in this sort of game, not a liability. Because an NPC can be the one to suggest a means of solving a problem.

It's really not that hard.

Quote from: Kiero;909261It's the GMs job to know that, and it's another reason why having a crew is an asset in this sort of game, not a liability. Because an NPC can be the one to suggest a means of solving a problem.

It's really not that hard.

I must apologize, when I say 'players' I usually include GMs.  Sorry if I was unclear.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;909264I must apologize, when I say 'players' I usually include GMs.  Sorry if I was unclear.

OK, but what kind of a piss-poor GM would run a game without bothering to do basic research on those sorts of things?

Quote from: Kiero;909270OK, but what kind of a piss-poor GM would run a game without bothering to do basic research on those sorts of things?

An excessively lazy one?

Quote from: Opaopajr;909136But you are more charitable than I in giving that rationale more strength than sheer lack of creativity and due diligence to prepare.

It is a philosophical position I try to take when posting on forums not to assume that we're the smart/creative/mature ones just because we happen to be here. I figure it is best not to assume that there are large swaths of total ignoramuses out there in gaming land, especially if there's a potential explanation more along the lines of people-don't-find-that-interesting/don't-see-how-it-would-be-a-good-game/think-it-sounds-intimidating-to-run.

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Good points all around. Obviously, a lot of what I said about can't actually lose the ship isn't true if the ship is easily replaceable. I have some half formed thoughts I'll work on through the day and post when I'm off of work. Something vaguely around 'breaking a mast isn't really threatening the ship if you aren't then prepared to follow through and actually have the ship sink (thus restructuring the direction the campaign was going) or crew starve at sea. People have been coming up with some really good adventure hooks off partial damage, so maybe I'm being too categorical (although I did say that these were hurdles, not insurmountable ones). I'll see if I can hammer out a response.

Nice conversation. :-)

Quote from: Madprofessor;909162In reference to your rant, while it's not exactly historical, The Pilot's Almanac for Harn is a pretty believable RPG treatment of medieval seafaring.  The best I have seen.

I think we can agree that when it comes to the premise that RPGs Seldom Get Medieval Exactly Right, Harn is almost always the great outlier.

Quote from: Kiero;909270OK, but what kind of a piss-poor GM would run a game without bothering to do basic research on those sorts of things?

C'mon.  Most of them, and you know it.  The standard "research" done by most GMs is comprised of a mashup of their RPG collection, their favorite fictional novels, and the relevant TV shows/movies they've seen.  Heck, let's make it pertinent to this thread: how many of the participants in this thread (a) have done treatments of medieval-tech seafaring, and (b) included ship's wheels on their craft?  Almost certainly the majority: I have never seen a GM other than myself who didn't.