Quote from: John MorrowSee, what you are supposed to be doing is imagining what would happen if one of those particular styles or ideologies were to take over the entire hobby, converted everyone you've ever played with and could possibly play with, leaving you nobody to play with that enjoys your style of game.  

Naaah, thanks, I'm good.  That schtick's covered already.

Quote from: walkerpI think part of SotC's success is the way it straddled the middle ground.  It had enough in it to appeal across a wide range around the center of the spectrum, without any extreme elements that would be too offensive to extremists on either side of the camp.

Which is yet another data point that the idea that people should be creating games that appeal to just one style of play is silly.

Wait, so is Warhammer FRP and Dark Heresy considered... uh... Indie? Their use of Fate and Fortune Points dictate certain things about the setting and they also require the player to justify, through roleplaying, the expenditure some of the time.

-=Grim=-

Not to mention that the kind of trait-based "lack of traditional stats" described earlier as a sign of "storygaming" was pioneered by Over the Edge back in '92.

(I'd admit that having some sort of a baseline for abilities is nice, though, and OtE did include that too.)

The whole "trad" vs "indie" thing is tiresome, and largely only of interest to the hardcore partisans on both sides.

It's all bullshit, when you get right down to it.   Play (or design) games that you like.   There will be gamers who have similar tastes to yours, and will play with you (or purchase from you).   There will be gamers who don't.

I haven't given half a shit about "indie", although I've designed and sold so-called "indie" games.   I've also designed and sold "trad" work.

I do what I enjoy, and I make a living doing it.  

The labels are only of interest to people who enjoy making labels, not making games.

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Lancer --

Hi.  I'm Dr Rotwang!, and I'd like to welcome you to the...uh...whatever...it is we do here.  It's fun, though, so it's good.

I'm not sure I've much to add except for noting what it is that I, personally, advocate:  

1) Getting down with Your Game, whatever it is; and
2) Sharing with interested parties your ideas on how, exactly, one can get down with Your Game.

In other words, I'm into this stuff for fun, and (not that I think you're guilty of this, by the way; just sayin') I think it terrifically rude when someone tries to tell someone else that the one's favorite game/playstyle/Care Bear/scene in Car Wash is better than the other's favorite game/playstyle/Bond girl/song on the Xanadu soundtrack.

There's a lot of zealotry o either side of the Trad/Indie divide, but I prefer not to think about it too much, especially when I have my own cockamamie C&C notes to prepare for, say, a game tonight.

And anyway, everyone knows that "I'm Alive" is tons better than "Whenever You're Away From Me".  DUH.

Welcome!

Hehe.. Thanks Dr. Rotwang. Nice to meet you. I'll keep this in mind

Quote from: John MorrowWhich is yet another data point that the idea that people should be creating games that appeal to just one style of play is silly.

Agreed.

GNS theory suggests that if your game does try to appeal to more than one style of play, then the system will likely become "incoherent." Vampire and AD&D are so incoherent that they are the two most popular tabletop RPGs ever made.

I'm all about incoherency in game design then..

Quote from: LancerHello everyone.

Hello!

Quote from: Lancer1)In many online forums, why does there seem to be such a push for the narrative/storytelling RPG as opposed to mainstream RPGs?

Good question! I don't know.

Quote from: Lancer2)It seems that the Forge almost exclusively makes storytelling (or narrative) games... Why? Why don't they make games that appeal to other gamers too? And why do they seem to have the lion's share of the indi RPG community?

Not sure I agree with your assumptions, compadre. My game was playtested extensively at the Forge, and it's not a story game. Also, given the number of sites out there, I wouldn't say that the Forge features "the lion's share" of the indie community. A good chunk of it, sure.

Quote from: Lancer4) Is it just me, or are the Indi RPG awards grossly biased towards storytelling games? Again, why does the Forge have so much power?

Might just be you. Nothing personal, I just haven't seen what you're describing. And as the Forge -- well, what do you mean by "power", exactly?

Quote from: Lancer5) Lastly, if an indi RPG developer decides to design a more traditional (although well-done) mainstream RPG for profit, does he/she already have the odds stacked against him/her?

Nah. My game is independent, but it's not a story game. It's pretty traditional. Roll initiative, roll to hit, roll to dodge, a gun does this much damage, but a sword does that much damage. You're penalized for fighting blind. If you lose enough hit points, you die. Et cetera.

Independent game publication doesn't have anything to do with the type of game that you're making. It just means that instead of submitting your game to someone for consideration, you gambled with your own money and you published the game yourself. Some indie designers produce games that are focused on story, while others produce more traditional games. Some sites focus on one or the other.

If you make a cool game, people will buy it. Might be that you sell enough copies to make a profit (I've done it, it's not that hard).

Quote from: LancerAgreed.

GNS theory suggests that if your game does try to appeal to more than one style of play, then the system will likely become "incoherent." Vampire and AD&D are so incoherent that they are the two most popular tabletop RPGs ever made.

I'm all about incoherency in game design then..

Then I think you'll fit in just fine around here.

Quote from: John MorrowWhich is yet another data point that the idea that people should be creating games that appeal to just one style of play is silly.

I disagree. If that's the direction (one style of play) the designer wants to go for whatever reason, I'm all for it. It may or may not appeal to me, but I'm sure it will to others. What I think is silly is that we can't seem to discuss our prefered playstyles without resorting to insults/dodgy theory.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RI disagree. If that's the direction (one style of play) the designer wants to go for whatever reason, I'm all for it. It may or may not appeal to me, but I'm sure it will to others.

While I'm sure specialized games can work very well in certain contexts, the reason why I consider them an inferior solution is that role-playing is a group activity.  If you have a game that caters only to one particular play-style at the expense of all others, than the chances of being able to put a game together is greatly reduced, especially if the group wants to play together and telling some of the players that don't fit not to play isn't a desirable option.

Quote from: David RWhat I think is silly is that we can't seem to discuss our prefered playstyles without resorting to insults/dodgy theory.

I also think that games designed toward a specific play-style can encourage that sort of thinking because players that find a fit will see the inclusion or toleration of other styles as only detrimental to their their enjoyment.

That said, the main reason why people can't discuss preferred play-styles without insults is that the play-styles often have conflicting priorities or approaches such that what makes a game better for one style can make the game worse for a different style, especially if it's using a system implemented without regard for other play-styles or the player is insensitive to the needs of other players.  Thus most people have played in a game where a player with a different style as hurt or ruined the game for them, thus they tend to view those people as game spoilers.

Why the dodgy theory?  That's what happens when amateurs try to explain what they like and what they mean.

Quote from: John MorrowWhile I'm sure specialized games can work very well in certain contexts, the reason why I consider them an inferior solution is that role-playing is a group activity.  If you have a game that caters only to one particular play-style at the expense of all others, than the chances of being able to put a game together is greatly reduced, especially if the group wants to play together and telling some of the players that don't fit not to play isn't a desirable option.

Well I think it's a social activity too but I don't have a problem with telling some players that their playstyle does not fit. If a guy/girl likes only hack style games he/she won't fit into mostly thesp type games. It works the other way too, of course. I do think from personal experience that there's a lot more fluidity to playstyles, a group may adapt to a style of play for one system and change back for another. It certainly is that way for my group and I've read about others who share this experience.

QuoteI also think that games designed toward a specific play-style can encourage that sort of thinking because players that find a fit will see the inclusion or toleration of other styles as only detrimental to their their enjoyment.

Maybe but the same can be said about games designed to cater to a variety of playstyles. A group finds what works for them in these multi playstyle games and become derisive of another type of playstyle even though said games also caters to that particular playstyle.

QuoteThat said, the main reason why people can't discuss preferred play-styles without insults is that the play-styles often have conflicting priorities or approaches such that what makes a game better for one style can make the game worse for a different style, especially if it's using a system implemented without regard for other play-styles or the player is insensitive to the needs of other players.  Thus most people have played in a game where a player with a different style as hurt or ruined the game for them, thus they tend to view those people as game spoilers.

Nah, the reason why some people can't discuss playstyles without resorting to insults is because they are immature, insecure wankers.

QuoteWhy the dodgy theory?  That's what happens when amateurs try to explain what they like and what they mean.

Sure.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RWell I think it's a social activity too but I don't have a problem with telling some players that their playstyle does not fit. If a guy/girl likes only hack style games he/she won't fit into mostly thesp type games. It works the other way too, of course. I do think from personal experience that there's a lot more fluidity to playstyles, a group may adapt to a style of play for one system and change back for another. It certainly is that way for my group and I've read about others who share this experience.

Individuals have styles that they enjoy and the styles that a group will enjoy is the union of the styles that the individuals enjoy (more or less).  The broader the scope of styles a game covers, the more likely it is that a group will find a map between what the game offers and what they like.  There are more than a few threads out there discussing the issues people are having figuring out how to have fun playing various indie games.

Quote from: David RNah, the reason why some people can't discuss playstyles without resorting to insults is because they are immature, insecure wankers.

In some cases that's certainly true.  In other cases, I think it's due to a legitimate grievance that manifests itself as hostility toward anything that reminds the person of the offense.

Quote from: John MorrowIndividuals have styles that they enjoy and the styles that a group will enjoy is the union of the styles that the individuals enjoy (more or less).  The broader the scope of styles a game covers, the more likely it is that a group will find a map between what the game offers and what they like.  There are more than a few threads out there discussing the issues people are having figuring out how to have fun playing various indie games.

I think it's good that these discussions are going on. And I'm sure there are some folks who have had success in trying to figure out how to have fun with indie games by adapting them to their individual groups and more trad/multi playstyles. However I do think that at the end of the day, indie games offer a specific play experience and if one comes into this with open eyes and accepts them for what they are, things would go much smoothly.

QuoteIn other cases, I think it's due to a legitimate grievance that manifests itself as hostility toward anything that reminds the person of the offense.

With the kind of rhetoric spewed by both sides it must be some pretty legitimate, soul changing, gaming grievances....

Regards,
David R

Quote from: John MorrowIn some cases that's certainly true.  In other cases, I think it's due to a legitimate grievance that manifests itself as hostility toward anything that reminds the person of the offense.

Doesn't sound like very mature behaviour to me.