So, I'm looking at Qin, and yet again we have a wide variety of complex special situation rules.  Different tao, different martial arts maneouvers, I simply don't have the time to learn it all and that means I don't have the time to run it - as I won't know the rules well enough.

I appreciate for many China means wuxia, and fair enough, but is the only way to do that really to have a different rules mod for every move one might make?  Could not not have a slightly lighter touch approach?

Agh.

Savage Worlds could do this well I suspect, though nobody seems to have done a relevant conversion.  Anyone know anything else for doing wuxia or Chinese historical gaming that isn't appallingly complex?

Oh, Gurps China is not much cop regrettably.

QuoteAnyone know anything else for doing wuxia or Chinese historical gaming that isn't appallingly complex?

HeroQuest? *ducks*

My guess is that people want chop-socky to somehow feel different from boring old combat, and we all know that the Eastern martial arts are complex and subtle. Hence, lotsa rules.

I didn't find it all that complex. not at all in fact. Remember that the Taos are all superpowers; they allow you to do stuff beyond what normal characters can do.

Pretty well anything you want to do within the realm of mortal ability is in the combat and weapon-techniques section.

Remember also that each character only has access to one or two Taos.  Most Taos are also extremely straightforward; +1 at something for 1 Chi point at level one, +2 for 2 chi at level 2, etc etc.

RPGPundit

Qin is complex? That's news to me...

Hell, Shadowrun is infinitely more complex (and I love both games).

Like Pundit said, the combat Taos are very straightforward.

I thought Go was very simple, though hard to master.

-clash

Quote from: JongWKQin is complex? That's news to me...

Hell, Shadowrun is infinitely more complex (and I love both games).

Like Pundit said, the combat Taos are very straightforward.

Yes, and each individually is very simple, but there are many of them.

All PCs have some tao, combat maneouvers or spells (or a mix).  So do important NPCs.  As a player, you just need know your own (though chargen with one book could take an age I suspect), as GM you need to know all of them.

It's the same issue with d20 feats and a lot of current game design, a hoard of small rules exceptions or tweaks none of which alone are too complex but which taken as a mass put a much bigger burden on the gm.

As for Shadowrun, a game can be pretty complex without hitting that particular height.

I tihnk the problem with a lot of these martial arts games is the same problem someone was talking about regarding licensed settings, and the JMS quote about a ship travelling at "the speed of plot".

In other words, their writers tend to go off the geek deepend focusing on the most minute and inane of details, while forgetting the fact that when it comes to all those fancy named maneuvers and such, most of them are just plain made up on the spot by the writers.  

They're plot devices, not intendd to be given the level of intense scrutiny they are inevitably dragged to by the obsessive fans who take what was just a story, and try and spin a whole universe out of it.

For a further example of this same effect, see The Tomy Westphall Universe Hypothesis.

J Arcane: I totally agree with your statement. Unfortunately I think that Balbinus' complaint simply does not apply to Qin in the first place, and thus your statement doesn't either.  

I hate rules-heavy games (I can't stand shadowrun, for example), but Qin, Qin is easy as pie. In play, it flows incredibly smoothly.  Even as a GM, you don't have to remember any of the Taos or magic or what-have-you until you're actually using them.  Balbinus' complaint is something like someone complaining about D&D 3.x saying "Its impossible to learn because if you're going to GM it you'd have to MEMORIZE EVERY SINGLE SPELL EFFECT AND KNOW WHAT EACH SPELL DOES AT ALL TIMES!!".  When in fact, you really don't.  In the rare occasions that a spell comes up that isn't in regular use, you look it up. And the Taos in Qin are much simpler in terms of rules content than the typical D&D spell, and the Combat maneuvres are simpler than your typical D&D feat.

So I really don't get where the complaint is coming from.  I specifically fell in love with Qin because it was NOT complicated.

RPGPundit

Hm, I'll take another look.  Do you know of any actual play reports I could look at anywhere?

Feng Shui in the 69 AD juncture always looked to me like the easy way to jumpstart a wuxia game.  But if I was going to do an entire campaign, I'd probably break out my 4th edition HERO System rulebook and Aaron Allston's Ninja Hero.  Make it a 150 point campaign and you get all the advantages of the HERO System supers rules.  That way no one has enough points to build more than one or too stupid tricks, thereby avoiding the overcrunched PCs you see in 300+ point supers games.

Quote from: BalbinusI appreciate for many China means wuxia, and fair enough, but is the only way to do that really to have a different rules mod for every move one might make?  Could not not have a slightly lighter touch approach?

Risus? Martial arts schools as cliches?