Quote from: Xavier Onassiss;721106When it comes to "people like what they like" I'd agree with you; there's nothing to get. But that's not the issue here. There's nothing wrong with liking elves, or with preferring to play elvish characters, to be more accurate. But when a gamer becomes so fixated or obsessed with playing elvish characters that they'll "take their ball and go home" whenever the GM doesn't cater to their fixation/obsession, then they've crossed over into extremism. Or maybe just plain stubbornness. Or good old fashioned stupidity; that's never off the table. Take your pick.

No, what I'm getting at is that I don't buy the extremism label, even if the player is adamant about not playing the game unless they get to be an elf. If they literally threw a fit about it, falling on the ground and thrashing around, or physically attacked someone in an effort to get their way, yeah, that's the sign of a deranged mind. But saying "no, if that's the rules of the table, then I won't play, sorry"? It's a game. You are allowed to say "I won't play unless I play an elf." Or "I won't play an elf", or "I won't play/run a game if it includes elves", or even "I won't play if we're using that rule system". You are even allowed to make it a deal breaker. That's not extremism, because *it's just a game*. We aren't talking about terrorism or racism or something, just picking and choosing a pastime.

If anything is extremist or unhealthy, it's this weird attitude that everybody has to play every kind of game, no matter what the conditions.

Quote from: JeremyR;721124Unless you are doing a completely alien setting, like Tekumel, or some atypical culture (Indian, Mesoamerican or African), it just doesn't make sense not to have elves or dwarves, since they existed (or at least people thought they did) in the real world.

It's like a setting without swords or chainmail.

Quote from: JeremyR;721124I would guess because they are so heavily associated with not only fantasy, but real world folklore.

Unless you are doing a completely alien setting, like Tekumel, or some atypical culture (Indian, Mesoamerican or African), it just doesn't make sense not to have elves or dwarves, since they existed (or at least people thought they did) in the real world.

It's like a setting without swords or chainmail.

Hoookay... so Conan's Hyborian Age should have dwarves and elves to make sense... :idunno:

I won't play anything other than a human (irrespective of genre), so I can understand them to a degree. If someone pitched a game which didn't feature them, I'm afraid my response would be "no, thanks".

I should note our upcoming 13th Age game doesn't have elves, dwarves, halflings, orcs or the rest in it. It's set in an elemental-themed world; besides humans there's Planetouched (aasimar, genasi, tiefling), gnolls and rat-men.

Quote from: JeremyR;721124I would guess because they are so heavily associated with not only fantasy, but real world folklore.

Unless you are doing a completely alien setting, like Tekumel, or some atypical culture (Indian, Mesoamerican or African), it just doesn't make sense not to have elves or dwarves, since they existed (or at least people thought they did) in the real world.

It's like a setting without swords or chainmail.

Quote from: JeremyR;721124I would guess because they are so heavily associated with not only fantasy, but real world folklore.

Unless you are doing a completely alien setting, like Tekumel, or some atypical culture (Indian, Mesoamerican or African), it just doesn't make sense not to have elves or dwarves, since they existed (or at least people thought they did) in the real world.

It's like a setting without swords or chainmail.

man what

I think there's a couple of factors.  

The first is, some people really do like certain characters.  If they're fun to play and they have an option to play in their preferred style, that's what they should do.  Playing a dwarf is more fun than playing a human, so if they play in a game that allows them to be a dwarf they'll have more fun than if they played in your game.  

The second thing is, when a GM has these types of 'firm rules' it can be a warning flag regarding what kind of game it is.  I don't have much patience for a GM that has a particular 'story' he wants to tell and is looking for actors to make that story happen according to his direction.  If dwarves 'don't exist', and/or don't fit the setting, that might be one thing -but if they do exist and there are literally THOUSANDS of reasons they could be involved in a group of humans and there's a blanket 'no, not on my table', I think that says something about the type of game it is, and personally, it's one that I'd be wary of.

Bad gaming is worse than no gaming.

I personally find Dragonborn, Tieflings, Uz and Baboons (from Glorantha) much more interesting as PCs than generic Elves and Dwarves. I usually play humans. I keep them around in AD&D because Legacy

Quote from: 3rik;721183Hoookay... so Conan's Hyborian Age should have dwarves and elves to make sense...

Heh, I like your answer better than mine.

That being said, taking a harder look at JeremyR's response, it sounds like he's an excellent example of the problem, as well as an example of the Gamers Are Lousy Scholars shibboleth.

In point of fact, elves and dwarves are not "heavily associated" with real world folklore.  They're not even heavily associated with European folklore.  Hell, they don't even dominate Scandinavian folklore.  They're motifs.  In some areas the motifs are more common than in others.

Gonna make an Aztec setting with elves and dwarves just out of spite now.

Quote from: Ravenswing;721420Heh, I like your answer better than mine.

That being said, taking a harder look at JeremyR's response, it sounds like he's an excellent example of the problem, as well as an example of the Gamers Are Lousy Scholars shibboleth.

In point of fact, elves and dwarves are not "heavily associated" with real world folklore.  They're not even heavily associated with European folklore.  Hell, they don't even dominate Scandinavian folklore.  They're motifs.  In some areas the motifs are more common than in others.

Moreover, the resemblance between elves and dwarves in D&D and those in folklore is next to nothing beyond the names.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;721381I think there's a couple of factors.  

The first is, some people really do like certain characters.  If they're fun to play and they have an option to play in their preferred style, that's what they should do.  Playing a dwarf is more fun than playing a human, so if they play in a game that allows them to be a dwarf they'll have more fun than if they played in your game.  

The second thing is, when a GM has these types of 'firm rules' it can be a warning flag regarding what kind of game it is.  I don't have much patience for a GM that has a particular 'story' he wants to tell and is looking for actors to make that story happen according to his direction.  If dwarves 'don't exist', and/or don't fit the setting, that might be one thing -but if they do exist and there are literally THOUSANDS of reasons they could be involved in a group of humans and there's a blanket 'no, not on my table', I think that says something about the type of game it is, and personally, it's one that I'd be wary of.

Bad gaming is worse than no gaming.

Maybe you might want to dial down the paranoia just a little.

See my first post in this thread; the GM in that game said "not at my table" to my character. I found a way to work with him and played something else. That guy actually turned out to be a pretty good GM once we got past that.

I agree, bad gaming is worse than no gaming, but writing off a game because of a single basic GM decision like this is quite simply premature.

Speaking of which:

5 Fantasy Characters That Need To Be Rebooted

Quote from: Spinachcat;720846I have been running a humanocentric OD&D game for some time, but I have recently learned that several potential players haven't joined my game because they "only play elves" or "only play dwarves".

Fuck 'em!

QuoteI personally don't get that, but I have met really good gamers who will only play Character XYZ and for them, having fun playing D&D means playing their favorite race and/or class.

I have to respect that. If someone's fun is "being a dwarf with an axe and Scottish accent", then as long as they're fun at the table, I guess as a GM, I should make room for that PC in my game world.

No seriously, fuck 'em.

Imagine getting together to play football and one person says they won't play unless they get to be the quarterback. It's one person deciding he's something special and to hell with what everyone else in the group wants to do.

QuoteI just feel a bit odd having to make every OD&D setting into something where Bilbo, Gimli and Legolas somehow make sense as PCs. I can do otherwise, but then I diminish the potential audience for my games. And as a OD&D GM at FLGS game days and conventions where nobody has heard of the OSR, it does not make sense to turn a potentially good player away from my table.

Someone who will only play one type of character, regardless of the setting of that particular game, is a shitty player -not a good one. You're better off without them.

Honesty is the best policy. When you invite newcomers to your game, explain upfront what is and is not featured in your campaign, and why. If you don't want to include elves because you think they've become an annoying cliche or you simply never liked them to begin with, say so.

The reason elves and dwarves and halflings are so popular is (aside from KEWL POWERZZ!) is that they are basically humans, but slightly more exotic than the standard issue one. It's like people in real life who think owning a wolf as a pet is just so much cooler than having a German shepherd, even though they are in most respects the same animal. In other words, it's a way of having your cake and eating it too.

Quote from: JeremyR;721124I would guess because they are so heavily associated with not only fantasy, but real world folklore.

Unless you are doing a completely alien setting, like Tekumel, or some atypical culture (Indian, Mesoamerican or African), it just doesn't make sense not to have elves or dwarves, since they existed (or at least people thought they did) in the real world.

It's like a setting without swords or chainmail.

I can't think of a single real world culture which features the weightwatchers contingent of the aryan nation and hormonally imbalanced Scottish midgets as part of its mythology.