WhosyerCon 2013 is over. This is a free con in Indianapolis and had about 1000 attendees last year. They were expecting about 1500 this year. I played no games this year, instead running two sessions of BASIC D&D. the Worlds largest Block Mania game and two boardgames/wargames: Viktory II and Source of the Nile.

There were about 650 seats for Pathfinder at the con. There were about 18 seats for Castles & Crusades and 12 seats for D&D at the con. Pathfinder seems to have sold out. C&C seems to have sold out. I had to beg people to play D&D. That's what D&D seems to have come to: you have to beg people to play. This is the second year in the row I've been in this position. I'm not going to fault Pathfinder or C&C for their success, but man, it is sure as fuck demoralizing running D&D. No 4e/5e at all during the con. The vendor hall was chock full of Pathfinder product and no D&D at all that I could see. I'm not sure what's going on; I wonder if it's the Organized Play programs? Pathfinder has a strong Indy presence, it would seem, so they have a strong con presence. D&D runs their OP through game stores who have no interest in doing con games and thus without a Feudal system in place they have no con presence. It may also be a combination of a poor event description on my part and a stigma now associated with the name D&D? I mean ... that's WHY a lot of people play Pathfinder, right ... they were turned off of D&D? Next time I may explicitly ask the Pathfinder people to send me their overflow.

The 18 Pathfinder tables were right behind me and I got the full on 'Hero' and 'real-aloud' eavesdropping from them. I think there's a bit of that in the game system, the hero part at least, but I'm pretty sure the read-aloud is a symptom of the OP/Con event structure. The games HAVE to all be run the same no evil party members, etc. This was in pretty stark contrast to my game. One group soaked a kid in oil, lit him, and made him run a room with some "Cousin It's" in it. This was after they bashed one kids head in with a stool and enslaved the third to carry their ale with them. They also wedged one kid under a portcullis so they scamper under it. After they had beaten the dungeon location out of a rutabaga farmer farmer, of course.

I ran the same adventure twice: once Friday night and once Saturday night. The hook was that they heard about a missing gold bullion shipment from a listening to a armer in a tavern. A farmer who won't talk to them. This does a good job of setting the tone of the game from the start. Nobody is going to give them or assign them a quest. The motivation is pretty clear: gold. And the farmer is not talking so some creative play (torture, force, intimation, bribery) is needed to get going. I usually don't like to make a group work for the hook but the whole 'Murder Hobo' introduction I give them in the start bonds them together instantly and they seem to 'gel' much better as a group immediately. And I mean IMMEDIATELY. A little humor, a little ultra-violence ... the tone of the game is set.

I had three type of players: modern players, brand new people, and people who INSTANTLY got the game. The new players are people who have never played D&D before or had a bad first experience in their past. They seemed to have a great time. A couple sought me out at a party later that night and were gushing in their good comments. I'm generally suspect of positive comments; I always think people are just being polite. Anyway; the n00bs did a great job picking up the game and going with the tone. They showed some of the best creative play. In both sessions there were a couple of people who 'got' the game almost immediately. These were some people in their early 40's who I _think_ (am projecting?) had similar gaming backgrounds to me. They were the ones who pretty much went full on 'Murder' and gonzo crazy in the game. The flaming kids, etc, were a result of them. The modern gamers seemed to take the longest to get in to the vibe. They were looking a quest. They wanted to 'investigate' for clues and 'rescue' the gold shipment for someone. They spent a decent amount of time trying to figure out what they were playing, it looked like to me, and eventually, after 60 minutes or so, started to spread their wings again. One of them enslaved a kid to haul around a beer keg they found in the dungeon. While the n00bs sought me out later to tell me what a good time they had, and the experiences people were clearly reveling gleefully in their characters, the modern gamers eventually were saying "this is SO much fun" and laughing a lot during the game. I'd say those are three different compliments in three different ways. EVERYONE had a lot of fun, including me. I like to shout and be bombastic and over the top in con games. So much so in these games that I was pretty hoarse the next days. The three times I've run it have done pretty similarly. Everyone goes left upon entering, for some reason. They all fail to notice the path north. They all freak the fuck out when the encounter the emerald 'androgynous' nude man with piercing blue eyes, flames in his hands and a room full of treasure. Every time the group freaks and seems to loose it. I have NO idea why. One group bribed Gulag the Ogre with Crabman body parts. The other group use fire A LOT and set the kids on fire/etc. Good times, good times as Pokeboy would say.

Block Mania is a 2-player wargame from the 80's. They released a +2p expansion for it called Mega-Mania. I duped those four boards four times and ran a 16p game. It may have been the largest ever. I'm gonna keep telling myself that until proven otherwise. It's a light wargame set in the Judge Dredd universe with A LOT of chrome in it. I simplified the rules a bit. It went over REALLY well on Sunday morning. I didn't have 16 but I think I had 10. It ran about 2h30m, and 30m of that was an overview/explanation of the game. It runs a little slow at first but then people get the system down well and the megablocks come tumbling down! The game ended with the last three blocks crashing down at the same time: Pat Morita block, Rowdy Yates block (run by a MAJOR JD fan) and Beatrice White block. Peachtrees went out first, followed by Davey Bohr. The middle is a blur.

Viktory II is a light and fast wargame. I'll call it similar to Risk, except it's not. It's short, rewards aggression, and has more tactical depth. I ran a 6p version and it went over GREAT. It, and Block Mania, are pretty much the perfect wargames. Exciting, fast, and very very fun. I suspect a couple of the guys who played are going to buy it. The winner was a 11YO girl who totally wiped the floor with us. I have very well-behaved kids but she picked things up FAST and CRUSHED.

Source of the Nile is an ancient mid-70's game. A simulation of African exploration in the 18th century. These days it would end up as solo computer game, I suspect, since it's almost a multi-player solitaire game. It got that THICK old 70's AH rules that are actually quite simple once you get in to the groove. Set activity level. Draw for Disaster, Roll for Lost. Draw for terrain. Draw for natives. Hunt. Bookkeeping. I had some pre-pilled out Mounted and Foot expedition sheets and we ignored the Canoes and river rules, since that's where a lot of the difficulty is. One guy got stampeded by a heard of elephants on the second turn. Two people had a hard time getting out of the known lands near the cape. The Pretty Girl found the Lost CIty ... and was then bitten by a black mamba and attacked by natives. I got stuck in the upper areas, making it from the western edge to ALMOST the source of the nile. Cute game as a relic of an earlier era, but lame-o now. It's going in to the trade/sell pile now that I've run it at a con.

Hotel was noisy. The bed still had the plastic wrapping on the mattress, I think, and was broken down. MISERABLE nights. The hotel food sucked also and you had to drive to get anything other than a crappy cheeseburger/hot dog. And there was NOTHING nearby. On the plus side the rooms are $75/night and so it's easy to sell out the hotel and get the space for free ... which is why the con is able to be a free con. I'm a big proponent of the hotel for that reason but man, I hate the rooms and food. I've been the longest serving Cadet in Barfleet; four years now and I've avoided every promotion while pretty much attending most local parties. The Captain, XO, and CMO hunted me down and promoted me on Saturday night. There goes my record ... I'm now an ensign. They hauled me down and made a special announcement right before I bought the 'front of the drink line' chalice. I've pledged to only use it in the no-line public/free-pour bar.

Gotta prep for the D&D game tomorrow; l8ers!

Block Mania: The Players, Peachtrees right before it fell, and the last three blocks that fell at the same time. Totally running this at GenCon.

I totally read Whorecon and expected Ian Warner to be involved.

Sounds like you had fun.

And I'm always impressed by the reports of massive Pathfinder presence crushing D&D. Wizards better get their shit together, fast.

Thanks for the report!

Interesting to learn Pathfinder has such a presence, although considering 5e's long dev cycle and the lack of 4e support may have a hand in it. For a while, I've been thinking Wizards/Hasbro may be letting the D&D brand rest and recharge for a year or two. It's an alien business strategy in the RPG hobby, but it's not all that rare in big business.

C&C is actually more surprising. Never suspected it'd be that big. Could it be regional?

Quote from: The Butcher;637910Whorecon

I'm in.

Quote from: Melan;637921Interesting to learn Pathfinder has such a presence, although considering 5e's long dev cycle and the lack of 4e support may have a hand in it. For a while, I've been thinking Wizards/Hasbro may be letting the D&D brand rest and recharge for a year or two. It's an alien business strategy in the RPG hobby, but it's not all that rare in big business.

C&C is actually more surprising. Never suspected it'd be that big. Could it be regional?

D&D Fallow?:
I've seen the 'fallow' thing stated before with respect to D&D. I'm not sure I buy it, but I don't think I can successfully refute it either. I kind of think of it like the 4 hr work week stuff. If D&D can being in $3m/year from DDI alone then why work harder to bring in more revenue? If MtG is keeping Hasbro happy then why rock the boat too much with promises about D&D?

Pathfinder/ D&D Split:
I think what I'm seeing is a result of how they organize and market/sell. D&D is clearly now aimed at stores. You can't run Encounters AT ALL unless you are associated with a store. They want to get you in to the store, get you a DDI subscription they can charge every month, and maybe get you to buy something at the store to keep the retailers happy. This is an extremely flat structure with one parent having a bajillion children. None of whom give a shit about a con since they are not selling stuff there.

Pathfinder appears to be based around a physical product subscription. "Buy everything we put out this month for the Adventure Path and all the extra goodies also." They want you buying the core adventure and lots of little fluff add-ons every month. They are much more group based than store based. A group may play out of a store but the store isn't ordering the product the way the store does for D&D. This is coupled with a VERY strong Feudal-like organized play program with regional directors, local people, etc. That takes a lot of work to keep organized and happy but gets you a VERY large base of people to call upon when a con shows up. "You, Tsarina of Indianapolis, run games at Whoyercon!" And she makes it happen. D&D doesn't have that because they are all based around the stores now.  



C&C:
This looks like it had a thread on the Trolls forum. While they were at GaryCon someone big in Ohio (big meaning "10,000+ posts on the trolls forum) showed up with some dudes. That sounds like  working the resources/base well to fill the game.

How do they put on the con for free?

Is there a per game fee for players?

I am glad Pathfinder is doing well. We need a place to store all the 3e rules bitches so they don't pollute other events.

From what I saw two weeks ago at Connooga, it was the same for D&D and Pathfinder. I ran a Mongoose Traveller game and a Labyrinth Lord game there, nobody showed up for the Labyrinth Lord game and I had a full table for Mongoose Traveller. I was surprised to find the guys from Gypsy Knight Games were locals who love Traveller.

Nobody was doing D&D, but half of the gaming floor was playing Pathfinder. Of those playing Pathfinder, about half of them were part of the Pathfinder Society organized play effort. The dealers room had a lot of stuff for Pathfinder, and what was left was a mixed bag of D&D 4E, Savage Worlds, and indie stuff I'd never heard of.

(I can easily see why Savage Worlds is getting a presence around here - Studio2Publishing took over the old Gameboard Distributing network which was locally based. They also own the SciFi City chain of stores and Nord's Games).


It looked like Pathfinder has replaced D&D as the fantasy RPG of choice for people.

Quote from: Melan;637921C&C is actually more surprising. Never suspected it'd be that big. Could it be regional?

It could be, but I suspect C&C gets more following from people who just don't give a crap about the internet than we would think. It's a system which works, for all its faults, perceived or real, and it does have its fair share of aficionados in the gaming world.

Quote from: Spinachcat;637971How do they put on the con for free?
Is there a per game fee for players?

It's actually pretty easy. Those costs are about About 85% of the cost is for the hotel/meeting space with the last 15% being printing for badges/schedules/program guides, and a few misc things like maybe some pizza for the "pre-con" volunteer meetings. For this con the split might be $3000/$500.

The biggest expense, the hotel meeting space, if offset by "room nights." Essentially, if you sell enough hotel rooms then the hotel gives you the space for free. This is why cons want you to use their hotel block code when calling in to reserve a room. You got a problem here if you're a con organizer. A nicer hotel or a hotel with more meeting space will have rooms that cost more. The more the rooms cost then the fewer you sell. The fewer you sell the more the meeting space costs you. A cheap-ass hotel with $75 room nights, crappy plumping, leaking roofs, bad beds, bad food, with no amenities across the street is totally going to make their nights with only a little publicizing of the con. $200/night rooms, for a con in which most of the attendees are local, has to work VERY hard to make their nights. Crappy hotels make sense if you're running a con. It also helps that this con has a Barfleet party and they sell A LOT of room nights.

Having sold out the room block you now only have to worry about the $500 "other" expenses. Most of these are optional or trivial, except for domain fees. A t-shirt run will usually pay for itself as long as you don't over order. In fact, sizing your orders may be one of the most difficult decisions you'll make.

You volunteer staff get paid in food during organization meetings before the con starts and maybe in a debrief session after the con. Your web person, your most important volunteer, did the website and reg system gratis.

Whosyercon sells memberships in the organization that help cover the ancillary costs. This year that included entry to the Con Suite that provided food 'all weekend long.' I understand that about 50% of the attendees bought memberships this year (at $20) and I suspect it was because of the 'free food' thing ... which ran out and was rationed. I expect this to get revamped for next  year because of the unhappy bitching people did about 'there were no gluten free options' and 'there were peanuts in the suite' and 'the lady in front of me ate 2 hotdogs and i didnt get any.' Ahhhh, gamers.

So, no cost to attend. No cost for events. Get your room nights covered. Let people donate. Be nice to your volunteers and get a good web person.

Quote from: jeff37923;638008From what I saw two weeks ago at Connooga, it was the same for D&D and Pathfinder. I ran a Mongoose Traveller game and a Labyrinth Lord game there, nobody showed up for the Labyrinth Lord game and I had a full table for Mongoose Traveller. I was surprised to find the guys from Gypsy Knight Games were locals who love Traveller.

(I can easily see why Savage Worlds is getting a presence around here - Studio2Publishing took over the old Gameboard Distributing network which was locally based. They also own the SciFi City chain of stores and Nord's Games).


It looked like Pathfinder has replaced D&D as the fantasy RPG of choice for people.

I think there's a nostalgia thing going on also. "Traveller?! I liked that, let's all go play together!" But with LL you have to know its a clone to want to play it. Same for my D&D game. Had I not called it D&D and instead called it 'Old BASIC fun D&D' I suspect I would have sold out in pre-reg.

'D&D' now means '4e' to people.

Savage does seem to have a solid fan base.

Quote from: Benoist;638010It could be, but I suspect C&C gets more following from people who just don't give a crap about the internet than we would think. It's a system which works, for all its faults, perceived or real, and it does have its fair share of aficionados in the gaming world.

Fuck yeah.

In spite of the faults we perceive, I've played a two-year campaign with it and it was an absolute blast.

Also, the Trolls' enthusiasm bleeds through the writing and is contagious. They're a bit like Palladium and Kevin Siembieda in this. Also in their liberal approach to deadlines but that's another debate entirely.

I attended your Block Mania game at WYC on Sunday. I wanted to thank you, and tell you that it was a blast! I haven't had that much fun playing a "simple board game" in a LONG time.

I'm not entirely sure if I will be attending GenCon this year (due to the expense involved), but be sure to post if/when/where you will be running your Block Mania game there. If I make it to GenCon, I will do my best to be there!

Thanks again,
Tony

So when you say there was no 4e, does that mean all the D&D tables being offered (what there were of them) were older-editions? Were you counting OSR games as "D&D", or was there no OSR presence? Were any other RPGs being run?

RPGPundit

The event guide only had two sessions in it that said "Dungeons & Dragons" or "D&D".  That was a BASIC game. There were two more labeled C&C and maybe 110-110 labeled Pathfinder.

I assert again that modern WOTC D&D is dead, probably because of their OP program and the 4e stigma, at least at this con and I suspect at more places. Their shift from Feudalism to God-Emporer OP models has left them ... Exposed?

D&D is dead but it has spawned a bazillion happy children. Ryan is/was the savior of the universe, blah blah blah.

Today's my birthday! Fried potatoes and onions for breakfast!

Do you think the culture of the particular Con could have had anything to do with it? Do you think there could be any special reason related to that Con that would make it more likely to have Pathfinder and less likely to have either 4e or OSR games?
It also seemed to be an unusual amount of C&C games...