Quote from: Zak S;622958One thing that I hate is when you pretty much have to read all the way through a dungeon just to get an honest holistic view of how its put together and what it's like. With megadungeons its way worse because the whole point is they're long.

I hear you, the problem in practice is that a short list like that is mostly meaningless when you've then got 100+ rooms for the level. Megadungeons take prep even when somebody else writes them - a lot of stuff interconnects.  It's a function of combinatorics (is that a word? 4 years spent getting a math degree and all lost)

Quote from: Zak S;622958After that, I think the rooms themselves should be in Stonehell/One Page Dungeon format.

I'm not enamored of One Page Dungeons. I like Stonehell, but a lot of authorial intent is lost - tons of detail is now left for the DM to come up with on the fly.

His best work is in the not-just-one-page parts where he lists his detailed traps and tricks, the one-page parts read like a monster catalog.  It also limits the number of complex traps & specials you can put in, because you're constrained on space.

Quote from: PatW;622973I hear you, the problem in practice is that a short list like that is mostly meaningless when you've then got 100+ rooms for the level. Megadungeons take prep even when somebody else writes them - a lot of stuff interconnects.  It's a function of combinatorics (is that a word? 4 years spent getting a math degree and all lost)


I'm not enamored of One Page Dungeons. I like Stonehell, but a lot of authorial intent is lost - tons of detail is now left for the DM to come up with on the fly.

His best work is in the not-just-one-page parts where he lists his detailed traps and tricks, the one-page parts read like a monster catalog.  It also limits the number of complex traps & specials you can put in, because you're constrained on space.

I think there SHOULD be space given over to complicated rooms, but if a room isn't complicated, I hate seeing space wasted on it. Just put it there and go "WC" and move on.

As for the holistic descriptions: there is still a lot of meaningful description that an author can and should do for GMs.

Like:

 if you built a funhouse dungeon where the puzzles are random and make no sense say that.

if you built a Thracia-style dungeon with interacting factions say that

if you have some ideas and themes woven in, say what they are

if you built a goofy dungeon where the orcs are like builders in construction hats making the dungeon bigger say that

if it's a meatgrinder with no puzzles but lots of monsters and traps say that

if the dungeon has politics and shit say that

a dungeon isn't (for the prepping GM) a novel--it does not gain from having its features slowwwwwly revealed to the attentive reader. I want to know what kind of thing I've got on my hands immediately.

Quote from: Zak S;623001a dungeon isn't (for the prepping GM) a novel--it does not gain from having its features slowwwwwly revealed to the attentive reader. I want to know what kind of thing I've got on my hands immediately.

Yes, I like that sort of thing for any published adventure. Reading through those things is often like looking at a jumble of puzzle pieces and trying to figure out that it's meant to be the Mona Lisa. A quick overview at the start would save a lot of time in digesting the thing and ensure that I start off with the correct assumptions.
Maybe this matters more for people who mean to run the thing vs. folks who are reading it as a proxy for actually getting to play it.

So Zak, when can you have Underheim, Outdoorheim and Aquaheim ready by?

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;623059So Zak, when can you have Underheim, Outdoorheim and Aquaheim ready by?

RPGPundit

I kept hoping someone else would do those, but they haven't. So...

Currently on the plate is A Red And Pleasant Land (AKA "Eat Me") which is AWholeCountryHeim but will have several modular bits and bobs (100 Lewis Carrolly trick rooms f'rinstance)- useful for any dungeons or wilderness and which will have 2 biggish (but not mega) 50-75 room dungeons in it.

After that is done and printed I will see what's what and start planning the next thing--what I put out will depend on what kind of tools seem like they'd be useful in my home campaign.

The closest thing to Aquaheim is probably this:
http://dndwithpornstars.blogspot.com/2011/04/wavecrawl-kit.html
which has served my "getting from one continent to the other with something interesting in the middle" needs so far well enough and is automated here http://www.random-generator.com/index.php?title=Today_At_Sea .

It’s good to read the discussion on bringing these mega-dungeons into publishable form, which is a much different thing than making a dungeon for one’s own use.

Quote from: PatW;622951When I read most of the proposed ways to publish a megadungeon "properly" (by people who don't publish, usually, so more theorizing there than actual practice), it mostly seems to me like shortcuts so you don't have to write as much.

It’s not so much about properly or not, but rather taking the creative content and bringing it all together in a design and layout that allows as many DM readers to use the product in at least one intended way.

Quote from: Zak S;622958One thing that I hate is when you pretty much have to read all the way through a dungeon just to get an honest holistic view of how its put together and what it's like. With megadungeons its way worse because the whole point is they're long.

Quote from: Benoist;622966The TSR format works for some DMs. That's a fact. It doesn't mean it's the optimal format for every user out there, however. I think there's room for variations and different ways to present the environment, some of which might be more useful for different types of DMs out there.

Yes, this is really the trouble.  It is even one of the problems with something small like Hommlet.  Ya, a bunch of us were able to get all of those containers of content into a living adventure, but it is a real hurdle for many.  That issue becomes exponentially more challenging with these mega-dungeons.

Quote from: PatW;622973I'm not enamored of One Page Dungeons. I like Stonehell, but a lot of authorial intent is lost - tons of detail is now left for the DM to come up with on the fly.

This is the trouble with publishing something like Castle Greyhawk.  It is really easy to lose the intent of the adventures and campaign.  I’m certain it is the reason Kuntz has always been hesitant to publish his old big dungeons.

Quote from: Zak S;623001...a dungeon isn't (for the prepping GM) a novel--it does not gain from having its features slowwwwwly revealed to the attentive reader. I want to know what kind of thing I've got on my hands immediately.

Quote from: Zak S;623068Currently on the plate is A Red And Pleasant Land (AKA "Eat Me") which is AWholeCountryHeim but will have several modular bits and bobs (100 Lewis Carrolly trick rooms f'rinstance)- useful for any dungeons or wilderness and which will have 2 biggish (but not mega) 50-75 room dungeons in it.

After that is done and printed I will see what's what and start planning the next thing--what I put out will depend on what kind of tools seem like they'd be useful in my home campaign.

Always good to see your stuff Zak.  You are doing a lot to try and over come the challenges of these very large settings.  As much as the mega-dungeons are cool, I am greatly looking forward to any new cities you may choose to pen!

It's been done, already, up-thread but "my own".  

I have much to do to finish Castle Delve; I know the broad strokes of it but it's the little greeblies (like stocking the "tomb level" and the "Forgotten World" level, f'rex.) that takes up so much time.

Megadungeons are 99% forum wank and 1% actual play.

In 30+ years, I have never found a group who would be interested in delving into the same place more than a month or two of game play before getting terribly bored. Even my old group of Wizardry fans barely go through our Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord campaign.

I find most groups would rather play ten 1 page dungeons than one 10 page dungeon.

Quote from: Spinachcat;623139I find most groups would rather play ten 1 page dungeons than one 10 page dungeon.

Hey Cat, what's worse than ten dead PCs in a megadungeon?

Quote from: Zak S;623001...

a dungeon isn't (for the prepping GM) a novel--it does not gain from having its features slowwwwwly revealed to the attentive reader. I want to know what kind of thing I've got on my hands immediately.

This is my preference--if I'm paying money for that sort of big product I expect an executive summary at the very least. OTOH I'm not a megadungeons customer. Big fan of tools though, so if your next product contains content similar to Vornheim then I'll probably buy it.

Quote from: smiorgan;623141This is my preference--if I'm paying money for that sort of big product I expect an executive summary at the very least. OTOH I'm not a megadungeons customer. Big fan of tools though, so if your next product contains content similar to Vornheim then I'll probably buy it.

Seconded - I'd honestly much rather have tools to help me quickly and efficiently build my own dungeons (mega or mini) than someone else's megadungeon so I'm definitely looking forward to whatever you come up with, Zak.

Quote from: Cadriel;622884Back about 5 years ago when we were first talking megadungeons and discussing what the OSR should do, my feeling was that if we were focusing on megadungeons the thing that made the most sense was to put out individual levels that could be worked into a referee's megadungeon.

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;622903You mean like the Geomorph meme started by Dyson Logos, but with full(y statted) megadungeon levels instead?

Don't know if that's Cadriel meant, but I know I was pushing for a geomorph-like modular megadungeon. Basic idea is that you have modular zones built around a unique room with tricks, unusual features, unique monsters, surrounded by a few supporting rooms in each geomorph. There's a lot of in-between space that connects the zones, which you could draw by hand, generate randomly, or fill in with geomorphs; these would be randomly stocked with treasure, traps and monsters of the more generic sort. Each person's megadungeon would be different. There would also be separate lists of the major movers and shakers and artifacts of the megadungeon, so that you can grasp the overall concept of what's going on (or even alter what's going on) without needing to sift through individual entries.

I started to do something like this, but didn't get very far: only did three "megamodules".

Great Spiral Stair
Abandoned Wizard's Library
Rotating Circular Chamber

Edit: Well, that's interesting. I just checked the Google Docs links that are in those blogposts and it looks like Google did something to the docs. They no longer include maps and the formatting is screwed up.

Quote from: Zak S;623140Hey Cat, what's worse than ten dead PCs in a megadungeon?

The live one at the bottom eating his way out?

I don't think I own anything that qualifies as a 'megadungeon' at this point... though I've been repeatedly tempted buy the Rappan Athuk thingie.
What I have ran and played and enjoyed were big outdoor 'dungeons' like The Big Rubble for Runequest and Parlainth in Earthdawn's Barsaive. Both have a HUGE city in ruins (with scattered mini-dungeons througout) and an attached frontier town full of thugs seeking their fortunes therein.
Recently our group was in and out of Parlainth for months, eventually delving down to its deepest roots in pursuit of our nemesis. I think it kept our interest because it had a home base nearby, was not static and was full of competing factions. It also gave us the closest thing to a TPK we'd ever had... and that was at the hands of another party of adventurers.
Much of our time there was like a standard dungeoncrawl... but always broken up by other non-dungeon events and encounters.

I'm working on a similar location for my homebrew setting and keeping those two classics in mind.

Quote from: Zak S;623140Hey Cat, what's worse than ten dead PCs in a megadungeon?

Don't you mean "what's better"

Quote from: Zak S;623140Hey Cat, what's worse than ten dead PCs in a megadungeon?

None.