Quote from: Omega;1026467And for that matter some players should never play D&D, or board games, or anything. People who are just there to fuck with the DM or players, people who just hate games.

You are never going to get a dice-o-phobe to play D&D or most other traditional RPGs. Some of them have what borders on a pathological hatred of dice or anything random in some cases. They might to storytelling. But some cant do that even for other reasons.

A fair point. Contextually, I had inferred from the OP that the topic was more along the lines of, 'can anyone who could and would ever play a TTRPG take on the role of gamemaster, given the need and an incentive to do so.' Once we start including people who pathologically hate dice, hate games, hate all forms of social activity, perhaps still think TTRPGs will damn your soul, and so on down the line, then the answer becomes of course there are people who can't, but the question has been reduced to a pretty meaningless one.

Quote from: Omega;1026467"No gaming is better than bad gaming."

I would disagree with this. Obviously some games are going to be so poorly run, or comprised of people you just don't like, so in those cases skip it. But I think if you are sufficiently interested in gaming, you can find enjoyment in even a poor to mediocre game. I meet too many people who haven't gamed at all in ages because they adhere to a 'no gaming is better than bad gaming' which I think helps contribute to the whole 'bitter, non-gamer, thing'. In my experience, it is like anything else, the more you do it, the better you tend to get. Some people are better than others, but it is still just a game. Taking the game too seriously, having overly lofty expectations and letting that impact your behavior at the table, is one of the fastest ways to make an enjoyable game miserable for yourself and others at the table.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;1026517I would disagree with this. Obviously some games are going to be so poorly run, or comprised of people you just don't like, so in those cases skip it. But I think if you are sufficiently interested in gaming, you can find enjoyment in even a poor to mediocre game. I meet too many people who haven't gamed at all in ages because they adhere to a 'no gaming is better than bad gaming' which I think helps contribute to the whole 'bitter, non-gamer, thing'. In my experience, it is like anything else, the more you do it, the better you tend to get. Some people are better than others, but it is still just a game. Taking the game too seriously, having overly lofty expectations and letting that impact your behavior at the table, is one of the fastest ways to make an enjoyable game miserable for yourself and others at the table.

That's not what the idiom means.  "Mediocre gaming" isn't "bad gaming," and for some people mediocre gaming is still fun.  Besides, in the context of this topic, the answer is obvious.  No gaming is better than bad gaming, but confronted with bad gaming, the best route is to GM yourself, even if that means a spate of bad gaming that you'll sooner or later replace with at least some mediocre gaming.  And who knows, maybe it will get even better?

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1026521That's not what the idiom means.  "Mediocre gaming" isn't "bad gaming," and for some people mediocre gaming is still fun.  Besides, in the context of this topic, the answer is obvious.  No gaming is better than bad gaming, but confronted with bad gaming, the best route is to GM yourself, even if that means a spate of bad gaming that you'll sooner or later replace with at least some mediocre gaming.  And who knows, maybe it will get even better?

Based on what I've seen over the years, I think a lot of people equate mediocre gaming with bad gaming. I guess I've just become very suspicious of that kind of bitching, and find "just game already" a much more productive approach to things. I see way too many people hesitating to game or GM for no reason.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;1026517I would disagree with this. Obviously some games are going to be so poorly run, or comprised of people you just don't like, so in those cases skip it. But I think if you are sufficiently interested in gaming, you can find enjoyment in even a poor to mediocre game. I meet too many people who haven't gamed at all in ages because they adhere to a 'no gaming is better than bad gaming' which I think helps contribute to the whole 'bitter, non-gamer, thing'. In my experience, it is like anything else, the more you do it, the better you tend to get. Some people are better than others, but it is still just a game. Taking the game too seriously, having overly lofty expectations and letting that impact your behavior at the table, is one of the fastest ways to make an enjoyable game miserable for yourself and others at the table.

Gaming takes time, a true zero-sum.  

Don't invest your time in mediocre anything.  If the gaming available is mediocre-to-bad, and investing even more time to do it yourself isn't on the table for whatever reason, then look for something great to put your time into.  It doesn't have to have anything to do with gaming.

But never settle for mediocre for very long.

Quote from: EOTB;1026553Gaming takes time, a true zero-sum.  

Don't invest your time in mediocre anything.  If the gaming available is mediocre-to-bad, and investing even more time to do it yourself isn't on the table for whatever reason, then look for something great to put your time into.  It doesn't have to have anything to do with gaming.

But never settle for mediocre for very long.

Are you gaming though. If this standard is still leading you to regular sessions of play, I say fine. If it is resulting in months and weeks of no gaming, then I think your standard is unrealistic and probably causing you to miss out on fun.

I guess  what I am trying to say is your starting attitude matters too, and you bring in a lot of what you get out of gaming. If you come in hyper critical, or with expectations that just don't match what happens at a typical session, you can end up killing your own enjoyment. I've definitely seen this. And I've also seen plenty of people, particularly online, who just never game because they've got it in their head that the session, the GM or the players all need to match some perfect ideal. Again, the bottom line is it is just a game. Forgetting that seems to be one of the primary causes of people not enjoying themselves. Obviously if a session makes you miserable, or detracts from other things you'd rather do, I'd say don't participate. But with gaming, I find just stepping in and doing it solves half the problems people fret about on the internet.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;1026555Are you gaming though. If this standard is still leading you to regular sessions of play, I say fine. If it is resulting in months and weeks of no gaming, then I think your standard is unrealistic and probably causing you to miss out on fun.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;1026555I guess  what I am trying to say is your starting attitude matters too, and you bring in a lot of what you get out of gaming. If you come in hyper critical, or with expectations that just don't match what happens at a typical session, you can end up killing your own enjoyment. I've definitely seen this. And I've also seen plenty of people, particularly online, who just never game because they've got it in their head that the session, the GM or the players all need to match some perfect ideal. Again, the bottom line is it is just a game. Forgetting that seems to be one of the primary causes of people not enjoying themselves. Obviously if a session makes you miserable, or detracts from other things you'd rather do, I'd say don't participate. But with gaming, I find just stepping in and doing it solves half the problems people fret about on the internet.

I'd agree with this.  But I'd say this is a gamer measuring an available game against a hypothetical ideal game.  I'm not talking about that - yes, the perfect is the enemy of the good.  I'm a stickler about gaming with people who have similar outlooks on campaign fundamentals, but outside of that sessions are very not serious in meatspace even if straight-serious in imaginary space.  The entire point of gaming for me is in the dining room camaraderie with the players, who are my friends (which is why I try and avoid gaming with people who would be more upset about level draining than they'd be laughing uproariously and busting the balls of the friend who goofed something and was drained as a result).  

I do go weeks at a time with no table sessions, as we all have pretty full lives and (IMO) rightfully prioritize gaming against everything else.  But if I'm not playing, I'm creating, so my personal hobby time is well spent regardless.  I'm talking about always asking yourself if your time is best spent.  How much I game is a much lower priority to me than that my time is spent on things that enrich my life.  If I'm sitting in on an adventure that doesn't scratch the itch of why I like AD&D in the first place, then I'm going to look at replacing that time with whatever is available that leaves me either improved or genuinely entertained.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;1026524Based on what I've seen over the years, I think a lot of people equate mediocre gaming with bad gaming. I guess I've just become very suspicious of that kind of bitching, and find "just game already" a much more productive approach to things. I see way too many people hesitating to game or GM for no reason.

Well, as the guy responsible for really spreading that meme, "bad gaming" does NOT mean "the occasional off night."

I am not responsible for people equating mediocre gaming with bad gaming.  Most people are booger-eating morons.

If you're not having fun, it's bad gaming.  That does not mean ever nanosecond has to be filled with awesomeness.

So, if you are having fun, does that not define "good gaming"?

I'd say, "YES".

Quote from: jeff37923;1026575So, if you are having fun, does that not define "good gaming"?

I'd say, "YES".

That, of course, is the logical corollary.  If everybody else is having fun but you, it's good gaming for them.  At that point, the correct thing to do is to politely excuse yourself.

I confess as I've gotten older, my tolerance for "mediocre gaming" - and by that I mean having players unwilling to engage at particular level that enables us to get our game to certain level of play - has evaporated to a thin crusty film at best.

I've spent many years gaming with people that ultimately, I've realized despite my often elaborate efforts, are not playing for the reasons or goals that I am. I liken it to a softball league and we have players that want *just* sit around and drink rather than play to win. I don't mean to sound militant or anything (I'm not) I'm just saying that there is a certain level of play I want in my games that I will no longer settle for in my players. This doesn't mean if we don't reach that level of play that I'm suddenly kicking people out of the group - it just means as long as everyone in good faith is making reasonable attempts to get the game to that level of play, it's game on.

I want to play in the big-leagues not T-ball at my table. I want players that want that too.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1026576That, of course, is the logical corollary.  If everybody else is having fun but you, it's good gaming for them.  At that point, the correct thing to do is to politely excuse yourself.

/agreed

Quote from: tenbones;1026577I confess as I've gotten older, my tolerance for "mediocre gaming" - and by that I mean having players unwilling to engage at particular level that enables us to get our game to certain level of play - has evaporated to a thin crusty film at best.

I've spent many years gaming with people that ultimately, I've realized despite my often elaborate efforts, are not playing for the reasons or goals that I am. I liken it to a softball league and we have players that want *just* sit around and drink rather than play to win. I don't mean to sound militant or anything (I'm not) I'm just saying that there is a certain level of play I want in my games that I will no longer settle for in my players. This doesn't mean if we don't reach that level of play that I'm suddenly kicking people out of the group - it just means as long as everyone in good faith is making reasonable attempts to get the game to that level of play, it's game on.

I want to play in the big-leagues not T-ball at my table. I want players that want that too.

Hence my oft-repeated statement, "management of expectations is the key to success."

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1026588Hence my oft-repeated statement, "management of expectations is the key to success."

Truer words... etc. etc.!

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1026588Hence my oft-repeated statement, "management of expectations is the key to success."

Yes, on that and all that preceded it.