Quote from: YamoHave it custom-made like I did.

Ack! Who does that? Can ya order them online? I've never seen anyone around here that makes custom plate frames.

Quote from: SigmundAck! Who does that? Can ya order them online? I've never seen anyone around here that makes custom plate frames.

There's a shop at the mall near me that does it, but I did find these guys: http://www.licenseplatesonline.com/

Quote from: YamoA "virtually classless" class system is, to me, just as pointless as a supposedly universal point-buy game where you can only spend the points in four pre-set ways. Necromancer is a class. Jedi Knight is a class. Expert Sniper is a class. "Guys who is, you know, really good at...uh, certain skills" (expert) doesn't cut it.

So your problem is essentially that the classes aren't concepts.  I don't want Necromancer or Jedi Knight for a class.  I want to come up with my own concept and plug in the rules to make it happen.  True20's classes remind me of Unisystem's Character Types - in AFMBE Survivor, Inspired, and Norm.  Roughly translated as "Tough Guy", "Magic Guy" and "Normal Guy".

Nothing wrong with preferring that classes be concepts, just that this is a feature, not a bug.  They made the three True20 classes very broad on purpose.

Quote from: MaddmanNothing wrong with preferring that classes be concepts, just that this is a feature, not a bug. They made the three True20 classes very broad on purpose.

Agreed.  I'm in the "classes with purpose" camp, though.  I'd like to see semi-broad, but not flavorless, classes by genre with guides for adjusting them to sub-genre/setting.
 
What I don't understand is trying to make d20/D&D "classless".  I understand point-buy systems.  Some of my favorite games (Hero) are pure point buy.  d20/D&D ain't it, though.  By the time you get there from here, you probably would have been better off starting from scratch.

Quote from: RPGPunditIf you don't have classes, you have an open invitation to min-maxing. So yes, for that reason alone, classes are a mechanic where the fix is far more important than the side-effects. Of course, some class systems are done better than others.

Even with classes Min Maxing is rampant.  Classes or classless if a game has rules you can find min maxing.  The degree of min/maxing is entirely based in the complexity/simplicity of the rules.  Warhammer has many classes yet min/maxing is fairly minor.  D20 has a handfull of classes and min/maxing is huge.  Champions has no classes and min/maxing is huge.   Classes and min/maxing are irrelevant.

QuoteI think the open-endedness of True20 works much better, for example, than D&D's class system.
RPGPundit

Agreed.

Quote from: YamoAgain, though, execution matters. Classes, by their mere presence, don't ward-off min-maxing like a magic talisman.

If you start-up a D&D game and allow any published prestige class from any source, there's huge min-maxing potential in selecting the most unbalanced ones.

GM scrutiny can never be taken-out of the picture.

Yup, classes only help somewhat to contain min-maxing, they aren't a panacea. Likewise, the problem becomes more serious when you add prestige classes and unlimited multiclassing.

RPGPundit

Quote from: YamoThere's a shop at the mall near me that does it, but I did find these guys: http://www.licenseplatesonline.com/

Woot! Thanks.

Another potentially kick-ass concept that True20 could be bringing to the table is the implementation of "Framing" that's going to be more fully explained in the upcoming Caliphate Nights setting book. I like what I read about it in the True20 Adventure Roleplaying pdf and if it pans out could be a really cool addition to a game.

Quote from: RPGPunditYup, classes only help somewhat to contain min-maxing, they aren't a panacea. Likewise, the problem becomes more serious when you add prestige classes and unlimited multiclassing.

RPGPundit

The best solution to min-maxing is not to play with munchkins, but call me crazy.  I'd rather the system just let me do cool stuff, rather than put a bunch of constraints on the system to try and stop people from breaking it.  The game rules will never be able to stop someone from being an asshole.

Quote from: MaddmanThe best solution to min-maxing is not to play with munchkins, but call me crazy.  I'd rather the system just let me do cool stuff, rather than put a bunch of constraints on the system to try and stop people from breaking it.  The game rules will never be able to stop someone from being an asshole.

Thank the gods I am not the only one who feels this way. Maddman, despite your Buffy fetish, you're not half bad. :heh:

Quote from: MaddmanThe best solution to min-maxing is not to play with munchkins, but call me crazy.  I'd rather the system just let me do cool stuff, rather than put a bunch of constraints on the system to try and stop people from breaking it.  The game rules will never be able to stop someone from being an asshole.

Most people who minmax are not really assholes, though.  Most of them are regular players, who, being good gamers, will try to make their character as uberpowerful as possible.  Things like classes and levels serve to help put a framework on that instinct to prevent a game from becoming unplayable too quickly, which tends to be what happens with point-buy no-limits games where people start out unbalanced and quickly spiral into the absurd.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditMost people who minmax are not really assholes, though.  Most of them are regular players, who, being good gamers, will try to make their character as uberpowerful as possible.  Things like classes and levels serve to help put a framework on that instinct to prevent a game from becoming unplayable too quickly, which tends to be what happens with point-buy no-limits games where people start out unbalanced and quickly spiral into the absurd.

RPGPundit

I don't really disagree with you on the merits of class-based systems. However, I disagree that "min-maxers" are "good gamers". I mean, the evidence is overwhelming to the contrary... all you have to do is pick up a random thread of DM exasperation. The problem isn't min-maxing itself, but rather the players who strive to do such things. Statting out a character to the limits of the rules is fine, but more often than not, the folks who do that are trying to manipulate the system in order to make their characters dominate the game. That is a direct result of min-maxing, and that is not good gaming IMO. A good gamer can take a 1976 Gremlin and make it shine. It doesn't take very much skill or imagination to make a Ferrari look good.

Quote from: ZalmoxisStatting out a character to the limits of the rules is fine, but more often than not, the folks who do that are trying to manipulate the system in order to make their characters dominate the game.

Huh?

Seriously, that doesn't match my own experience at all.

In my experiences, odd as they may be, most min-maxers are looking at the system, in a lot of ways, as a kind of assemble-it-yourself toy.  They want to build the coolest toy possible.  Some would like more parts, to build a cooler toy, some find it challenging to use only the parts at hand, or even a more limited selection.

And sure, they're somewhat competitive.  But there's a good country mile of distance between firendly competition and bullying.  "Dominating the game" strikes me as being on the bullying end of that mile, and that's not what I see at all.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenHuh?

Seriously, that doesn't match my own experience at all.

In my experiences, odd as they may be, most min-maxers are looking at the system, in a lot of ways, as a kind of assemble-it-yourself toy.  They want to build the coolest toy possible.  Some would like more parts, to build a cooler toy, some find it challenging to use only the parts at hand, or even a more limited selection.

And sure, they're somewhat competitive.  But there's a good country mile of distance between firendly competition and bullying.  "Dominating the game" strikes me as being on the bullying end of that mile, and that's not what I see at all.

They certainly seem odd to me. My experience with min-maxers has general been that they seek to dominate the game (or hog the spotlight in the story). IMO there's a huge difference between a min-maxing jerk-off and someone who seeks to create a strong, yet flawed character who's flaws they actually roleplay. There's nothing wrong with playing an int 4 super-strong and fast CG half-orc barby if you actually play him as the bumbling, means well but always ends up getting the group into jams, pony-loving retard, who only rages when someone hurts a kitten, that he's supposed to be, instead of just a really strong and tough fighter who might as well have an int of 10 by the way he's roleplayed.

Let me amend what I said about min maxers being assholes.  This only happens when people do it to disrupt the game.  I mean if four people are trying to tell involved stories, and a fifth is dominating the game with his twinked out uber ninja of doom, he's being thoughtless at best and an asshole at worst.

However, if all five players want to twink and munch out their characters to their heart's content, more power to them.  It's only a problem when it becomes disruptive and interferes with other people's fun.

Quote from: MaddmanLet me amend what I said about min maxers being assholes.  This only happens when people do it to disrupt the game.  I mean if four people are trying to tell involved stories, and a fifth is dominating the game with his twinked out uber ninja of doom, he's being thoughtless at best and an asshole at worst.

However, if all five players want to twink and munch out their characters to their heart's content, more power to them.  It's only a problem when it becomes disruptive and interferes with other people's fun.

Very true. I have to echo this as well. If the DM don't mind, and the players don't mind, then pretty much anything goes really.It's all about fun in the end. All I can say is it's not the kind of game I prefer.